What is your favourite English hop variety?

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Jocky
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Re: What is your favourite English hop variety?

Post by Jocky » Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:50 pm

I had a beer made with Olicana the other day - very new English hop.

Probably the fruitiest English hop I've had the fortune to try.
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Monkeybrew
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Re: What is your favourite English hop variety?

Post by Monkeybrew » Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:04 pm

I've picked 100g of Epic hops.

Never heard of them before, anybody got any experience with them?

BTW, I love First Gold hops!

Cheers

MB
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Conditioning:
AG#41 - Vienna Lager - 5.6%
AG#42 - Heritage Double Ale - 10.5%

On Tap:
AG#44 - Harvest ESB - 5.4%
AG#45 - Amarillo Gold APA - 5.2%

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scuppeteer
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Re: What is your favourite English hop variety?

Post by scuppeteer » Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:07 pm

Monkeybrew wrote:I've picked 100g of Epic hops.

Never heard of them before, anybody got any experience with them?

BTW, I love First Gold hops!

Cheers

MB
Nice and fruity, think berry fruits not citrus, you'll really notice the aroma when you open them. And they're really sticky so a good oil content. Only grown on one farm in Kent.
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Monkeybrew
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Re: What is your favourite English hop variety?

Post by Monkeybrew » Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:02 am

Cheers for that.

I didn't actually pick them myself, as my post reads!

Meant to say picked up.

Cheers

MB
FV:


Conditioning:
AG#41 - Vienna Lager - 5.6%
AG#42 - Heritage Double Ale - 10.5%

On Tap:
AG#44 - Harvest ESB - 5.4%
AG#45 - Amarillo Gold APA - 5.2%

pads72

Re: What is your favourite English hop variety?

Post by pads72 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:31 pm

boingy wrote:Cascade.
Local English Cascade.
I've only used US and NZ versions - how do the various national Cascades compare?
Just done a bit of quick research into the national varieties of cascade and found the following, but it would be useful to get other views from experience!

UK Cascade - 5-9% AA; Dual purpose; characteristics: Lychees, floral, grapefruit (source - Charles Faram)
US Cascade - 4.5-7% AA; Dual purpose; characteristics: Floral, citrus, grapefruit (source - Hopslist)
NZ Cascade - 6-8% AA; Dual purpose; characteristics: Citrus, grapefruit (source - NZ Hops)
Argentinian Cascade - 3-3.5% AA; Aroma; characteristics: Lemongrass, pepper, spice (source - Hopslist)
Australian Cascade - 5-7% AA; Aroma; characteristics: Citrus, spicy, floral, grapefruit (source - Hopslist)

Seems to be a familiar theme of floral, citrus, grapefruit, but I guess the 'terroir' makes a huge difference. I was surprised to see the UK version has the greatest AA range. The Argentinian version seems like a different hop altogether!

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Rubbery
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Re: What is your favourite English hop variety?

Post by Rubbery » Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:13 pm

pads72 wrote:
boingy wrote:Cascade.
Local English Cascade.
I've only used US and NZ versions - how do the various national Cascades compare?
Just done a bit of quick research into the national varieties of cascade and found the following, but it would be useful to get other views from experience!

UK Cascade - 5-9% AA; Dual purpose; characteristics: Lychees, floral, grapefruit (source - Charles Faram)
US Cascade - 4.5-7% AA; Dual purpose; characteristics: Floral, citrus, grapefruit (source - Hopslist)
NZ Cascade - 6-8% AA; Dual purpose; characteristics: Citrus, grapefruit (source - NZ Hops)
Argentinian Cascade - 3-3.5% AA; Aroma; characteristics: Lemongrass, pepper, spice (source - Hopslist)
Australian Cascade - 5-7% AA; Aroma; characteristics: Citrus, spicy, floral, grapefruit (source - Hopslist)

Seems to be a familiar theme of floral, citrus, grapefruit, but I guess the 'terroir' makes a huge difference. I was surprised to see the UK version has the greatest AA range. The Argentinian version seems like a different hop altogether!
I have tried 3 of these and find:
US Cascade - very in-your-face citrus/grapefruit. best for APA style. I use it in a single hop summer ale.
NZ Cascade - a bit more subtle than the US. More like US Centennial. I use as a late hop in a number of beers.
UK Cascade (Endeavour) - more subtle again and more floral. I have only used once in a single hop beer, but think it would be better in combination with other english hops (Challenger/EKG/Bramling X?)

pads72

Re: What is your favourite English hop variety?

Post by pads72 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:30 pm

Cheers Rubbery, useful comparison.

I doubt there are (m)any on here who have used Argentinian or Aussie versions!

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Re: What is your favourite English hop variety?

Post by Clibit » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:47 pm

Is Endeavour actually UK Cascade? I didn't know that.

I've had US Cascade with 9% AA so those figures given above aren't accurate it would seem.

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Re: What is your favourite English hop variety?

Post by Hanglow » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:01 pm

No it's a cascade cross


according to the british hops website

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Re: What is your favourite English hop variety?

Post by Clibit » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:31 pm

Is there another UK hop that's just called Cascade then?

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Rubbery
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Re: What is your favourite English hop variety?

Post by Rubbery » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:42 pm

Sorry, I thought Endeavour and UK Cascade were the same hop. I have checked with Charles Faram and they are different: Endeavour is a cross between Cascade and a Hedgerow Hop; UK Cascade was imported from US and introduced into British production in 2002.

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Re: What is your favourite English hop variety?

Post by seymour » Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:20 am

Rubbery wrote:I have tried 3 of these and find:

US Cascade - very in-your-face citrus/grapefruit. best for APA style. I use it in a single hop summer ale.
NZ Cascade - a bit more subtle than the US. More like US Centennial. I use as a late hop in a number of beers.
UK Cascade (Endeavour) - more subtle again and more floral. I have only used once in a single hop beer, but think it would be better in combination with other english hops (Challenger/EKG/Bramling X?)
I agree fully with your descriptions of US Cascade vs. NZ Cascade, and I've tasted true Cascades grown in the UK too, which are tamer. That's a perfect example of the differences "terroir" can make. When this stereotypical US hop is grown in the UK, there is a subtle muting effect of the American aspects (grapefruit, black currant, pine resin, weedy, catty), and amplification of "refined" English traits (floral, grassy, earthy, woodsy). All those same traits are there, regardless of where it's grown, albeit to noticeably variable levels. It reminds me of the differences in our language: mostly the same vocabulary and patterns, but with obviously different accents and emphases.

The same thing can be observed going the other direction: Challenger hops were bred in Kent, England, but taste more fruity and resiny when grown in Yakima Valley, Pacific-Northwest, USA. I don't think I've actually tasted English-grown Northern Brewer hops (also bred in Kent), but I notice the same differences between ones grown in Germany (slightly nobler) versus my back yard (slightly bolder). "Terroir" does make a difference--I don't think it's all in our heads--but it's never a huge difference of night and day. In other words, I haven't yet experienced a scenario where "terroir" alone made the hops taste like intrinsically different varieties.

Regarding Endeavour hops, though: despite their 50% Cascade parentage, in my opinion they are extremely different, and not nearly as pleasant in their own rite. This is the result of very different oil composition, from breeding not simply "terroir". Food for thought: Cascade was bred for major American breweries who wanted classic English hop characteristics, except with improved disease resistance and yield. They crossed a Fuggle plant with a male hop, which itself was grown from seed by crossing a Russian Serebrianka and a Fuggle male. So in that sense, 75% of American Cascade genes came from English Fuggles…but think about that…you know how very different Cascade and Fuggles taste, right? See, it only takes a few different genes to express entirely different characteristics. Chimps and humans are 98.8% genetically identical. The difference between water and Hydrogen peroxide is a single atom.

I've only tasted Endeavour hops in one beer and was unimpressed, though I'll gladly stand corrected if/when I try some better examples. It seems English hops breeding programs are playing catch-up, and there are some really exciting and delicious new varieties being released lately, but sadly, I don't think Endeavour is one of them. Seriously, someone please change my mind.

Following is my rating of Schlafly Hop Trial: Endeavour (6.5% abv, 45 IBU, dry-hopped with 2 lbs/barrel)
Aroma: 6 out of 10, Taste: 5 out of 10

On draft at the Tap Room in a half-pint glass. It poured a mostly-clear golden colour with weak white foam, some lace. Extremely neutral grainbill to emphasize the hops. Coarse bitterness, odd weedy and resiny characteristics plus some mushy mango and cantaloupe melon. Unusual but not really in a good way. None of Cascade’s grapefruit, maybe a little sweet citrus and blackcurrant, but any similarities are definitely not big parts of Endeavour’s profile. Not exactly harsh but definitely rough around the edges, like Target or Northdown. Not smooth, pleasant, harmonious. I hate to say it, because I’m a huge fan of English hops, even several of the new high-alpha varieties but based on this isolated sample, Endeavour is not a great hop and by itself does not produce a great beer.
But these are all just one dude's opinions. Rebuttals?

Here's another entirely different perspective for instance. I spoke with my favourite commercial brewer last week, and he mentioned he is very sceptical of all this "terroir" business. He said the concept makes sense when you're talking about grapevines which are very, very old, with lots of woody, perennial, above-ground growth which is continuously trained to trellises, subject to all the elements, etc. But he feels hops might be much less subject to "terroir" differences considering most of the plant generates in a single growing season which is then mowed all the way back to the ground, and that even the rootstock is replaced fairly frequently with fresh (in most cases: imported) rhizomes. I see his point, and I usually trust his insights more than my own, but that contradicts much of my own impressions.

What say you all to that?

Padalac

Re: What is your favourite English hop variety?

Post by Padalac » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:28 am

I quite like endeavour..

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seymour
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Re: What is your favourite English hop variety?

Post by seymour » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:19 pm

Padalac wrote:I quite like endeavour..
Interesting. How were they used?

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Re: What is your favourite English hop variety?

Post by Clibit » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:34 pm

Would love to try some American Challenger. We don't seem to get that over here. I don't think Northern Brewer hops are grown in the UK, we get the German stuff here as far as I know. Cars, dishwashers, hops etc. We need to lose a war or two. :-)

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