Am I barking up the wrong bine here....beta acids

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timbo41
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Am I barking up the wrong bine here....beta acids

Post by timbo41 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:39 am

I will be first to admit the reason I got into any form of brewing was financial....when I started I was skint!! Then I got hooked. I do the lot, kits, modding, ag ....whatever time and work constraints allow. But I still do the" that's 40p a pint ...how can I get to 35p" thing, not withstanding using crappy ingredients like sugar when I can avoid it. So when I saw a post on Brewdogs blog it made me think. When dry hopping, to my limited knowledge, only the beta acids are involved due to low temperatures?? So why not then use hops in a boil or fwh, perhaps figuring in a reduction of maybe 25% AA just in case? I've done something similar in that I've use kettle hops as an in mash hop.... No idea if it did anything in end! Other than act as rice hulls would when sparging.
Probably seems a silly idea, but hop prices are creeping up. And the newer big aromatics varieties....just seems a waste to me to dry hop then chuck them
Anyone tried dual use this way?
Just like trying new ideas!

Charles1968

Re: Am I barking up the wrong bine here....beta acids

Post by Charles1968 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:15 am

Dry hops are used for aroma rather than bittering (from alpha acids). You can save money on hops by using a high alpha variety for bittering at the start of the boil. If the alpha acid level is high, you need far less. Then use your aroma hops at the end of the boil and let them steep during the chill. Also, stick to aroma hop varieties with massive flavour such as Citra as you don't need a huge amount and can even skip dry hopping. I don't see much point adding hops to the mash as alpha acid isomerization stops below 80 Celsius.

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Re: Am I barking up the wrong bine here....beta acids

Post by timbo41 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:55 am

All valid and informed Charles and thankyou. I should perhaps illustrate my point. Take for example the NZ hop pacific Gem. Has high alpha around 16 iirc. I've only used it for dry hopping has a nice citrusy aroma, but as you say could be used as a kettle hop usefully. My knowledge of hop chemistry is limited but why not dry hop with it, utilising the beta compunds, then use in the kettle on another brew? Can't do it the other way, the temps as you say for isomerization are too high, nullifying the beta compounds. As to mash hopping, I agree. I found no discerible difference. But why not use old used hops, not for flavour but in a similar fashion to rice or barley hulls, just to act as a grain bed to help prevent stuck mash. Won't do any harm
Just like trying new ideas!

Charles1968

Re: Am I barking up the wrong bine here....beta acids

Post by Charles1968 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:28 pm

timbo41 wrote:All valid and informed Charles and thankyou. I should perhaps illustrate my point. Take for example the NZ hop pacific Gem. Has high alpha around 16 iirc. I've only used it for dry hopping has a nice citrusy aroma, but as you say could be used as a kettle hop usefully. My knowledge of hop chemistry is limited but why not dry hop with it, utilising the beta compunds, then use in the kettle on another brew? Can't do it the other way, the temps as you say for isomerization are too high, nullifying the beta compounds. As to mash hopping, I agree. I found no discerible difference. But why not use old used hops, not for flavour but in a similar fashion to rice or barley hulls, just to act as a grain bed to help prevent stuck mash. Won't do any harm
Oh, I didn't realise you meant recycling used hops after dry hopping. I guess you could try, but even though the alpha acids won't have been utilizied (i.e. isomerized and dissolved in the beer), they might still have been leached out by the water or oxidized. Generally you're meant to use only very fresh, dried hops that have been stored frozen and airtight. I would have thought that a long soak in water won't do much good...

Most people disregard beta acids when doing calcs. I don't think they contribute any bitterness when dry hopping. You just get aroma. And sometimes a few dead snails... which can spoil the beer.

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Re: Am I barking up the wrong bine here....beta acids

Post by timbo41 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:54 pm

Again thanks. Hadn't considered leaching out of aloha acids, was thinking only in terms of isomerisation.....which is I
Why I cobsidered using to dry hop first then use as kettle
Much of this comes from a deep seated frugality and my belief that C15th an old flanders house wife would have re used both grain and hops somehow...one as a remash for a small beer , the other...? Given the price of hops both then and now
Just like trying new ideas!

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dcq1974
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Re: Am I barking up the wrong bine here....beta acids

Post by dcq1974 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:57 pm

I've experimented with this in the past i.e. using dry hops in the boil for the next beers bitterness. It was extremely successful, especially as I kept them frozen after dry hopping.

That said, I have never repeated or continued this practice as it's far to easy to throw them away after they leave the fermenter.

Give it a go - label the spent dry hops with initial dry weight and alpha acid content.. You will not notice any difference in bitterness but flavour could be affected.
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Re: Am I barking up the wrong bine here....beta acids

Post by timbo41 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:53 pm

Sir. It may have been a previou post of yours that caused nme to raise the point. I will try it. I suspect my formulation if recipe will assume a lesser degree of calculated bitterness per AA than the norm so perhaps just a mild, but why not....the hops may have already served their purpose in dry hopping....so what's to lose!! Worse case scenario, a sweetish un balanced beer. Don't mind that ill just call it a southern brown ale :D
Just like trying new ideas!

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Re: Am I barking up the wrong bine here....beta acids

Post by dcq1974 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:52 pm

=D> :D
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Re: Am I barking up the wrong bine here....beta acids

Post by Jocky » Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:56 pm

I look forward to hearing about what happens when you try this...
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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