First attempt at splitting WLP005 - poor attenuation?

[Kev888]

Hi all,
I don't think my first attempt has gone very well for some reason. But I'm new to this yeast (as well as purely spraymalt brews), and my expectations are mainly based on vigorous dried yeast, so I wanted to check:

I made a gallon of wort just from spraymalt at 1032, and a week or so after pitching the vial it has stabilised at 1019 - it was never what you'd call an explosive fermentation but did bubble gently for about five days. It tastes how you'd imagine; a sort of weak, slightly sweet beer with no hops but otherwise fine (no taints or signs of infection). Theres a fair amount of sediment in the bottom too, though it could be from the malt rather than the yeast, but I'm imagining with that kind of attenuation things aren't quite as they should be - I was expecting more?

Cheers,
kev

[Kev888]

There's no need to be hesitant - I already expect that I've 'somehow' surpassed myself and managed to balls-up the simplest, smallest batch I've done in decades. I'm just seeking some confirmation that its me and not what I should actually expect from the new (to me) yeast/spraymalt combo..

Cheers
kev

[staplefordbill]

Hi Kev, I'll be chuffed to help you after all the help you've given me.

I split WLP002 a couple of weeks ago and the fermentation's been fine; in fact the FG for my latest brew was 1008 which is a record low for me and a little too low! The fermentation for that yeast was as vigorous as any dried yeast I've had. It could be that you're underpitching, or the starter wort was too weak. Here's what I did:

1) I made 3.5 litres of 1042 wort by boiling up 450ml of liquid malt extract + 3200ml of water (formula based on thread here http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/okay-us ... ter-51062/).
2) After fermenting for nearly a week, I poured away about 2.5 litres of the wort taking care to leaving the yeast undisturbed on the bottom, then shook and stirred with the end of a large sterilised plastic spoon. This recombined the yeast with the wort.
3) I filled 5 330ml bottles with the yeast / wort mixture. I left the demijohn to separate the remaining wort for 2 days and kept it in my beer fridge at 4c.
4) On brew day I brought the yeast into the kitchen a few hours before I was ready to pitch.
5) I chucked away all but a tiny bit of the beer, pouring the remainder plus all the settled yeast into the FV.

HighHops has mentioned this: 2 litres starter can be needed even for beers of moderate strength (up to 1045). Instead of splitting you could always harvest the yeast when your beer's finished fermenting, as long as you're brewing again within 2 weeks. I did this, keeping the harvested yeast in a 1 litre plastic bottle and again the fermentation was very vigorous.

I also put some wort from my last brew on one side to make a 3.5 litre lager yeast starter. Can't wait to use that one.

[Kev888]

Hi, great stuff - this to me is what JBK is all about; I can help with some things but need help myself with others so thanks very much!

I pretty much only got to stage 1.5 - as I'm doubtful its worth trusting to a full brew so haven't split/bottled it yet. And I think what you say pretty much confirms it - I've only tried a few liquid yeasts so far but none have been quite so lack-lustre as this one.

I only pitched into 1 gallon and the vial was in date and supposedly suitable for up to 5 gallons - presumably thats in a perfect world, but even so I'm surprised it struggled with 1gal. I think that may be my inexperience with it showing; it was only just in date and if high-hops says up to 2l for a normal brew length then probably even for one gallon I should have built up from a smaller size to be safe. I hope thats it anyway - I'd like to think that even being new to the yeast I've not suddenly forgotten how to ferment properly!

It sounds like a good idea to save some wort from a bigger brew - hope it works out well for you! I've also heard (I think also from high-hops, can't quite remember) of collecting the last, weak runnings and boiling/rendering them down to a suitable gravity for starters etc. And Just today in another thread someone made me realise BIAB may be another approach to easily make a small volume - to be honest whilst I'm sure its fine I've not immediately taken to spray malt as the main ingredient so I'll try at least one of these next time instead.

Thanks once again

Cheers
kev

[Kev888]

Okay, I tried again. Because I couldn't find fault with what i'd done before I did a test this time by making 2gallons of wort and doing 1gallon of wlp005 and one of S-04 as a side-by-side comparison. The S-04 has done what S-04 normally does, even without rehydrating first, and within five days had reached 1.009 from 1.030, yet the wlp005 has been much slower and at 7 days is virtually stopped yet still up around 1.016. Acording to the whitelabs fact sheet I was expecting 'similar' performance to the S-04; perhaps slightly less attenuation but not that much.

So my early steps in liquid yeast aren't going well and I'm again doubtful about splitting/using the results, although that said my wlp002 went well enough before this. Can anyone think of something that I should be doing with wlp005 (or liquid yeast in general) that a long-time dried yeast user like myself may not realise?

Thanks,
Kev

[leedsbrew]

Kev, don't worry, it's not you! I uised wlp005 last year for almost all of my british ales. It's a cracking yeast and by far my go too for the style! It is however a pig to keep in suspention! I found to reach my FG I had to keep rousing every other day as this yeast just really wants to floculate out! Great for bottle conditioning though!

with the starters I find that it's best to use this yeast either with a stir plate or give it a swirl every time you walk past it (although if my memory of the photo's you've put up serves you do your starters in the temp controlled fridge!) so give it a swirl every evening if you can.

I also tend to make my starter wort to 1040 with 100g per L of water. I use 1200ml and by boiling for 15 mins it usually ends up at 1L

Keep going with it as it really is a cracking yeast!

[vacant]

Did you aerate the wort when you pitched?

[leedsbrew]

Did you aerate the wort when you pitched?

A very good point Vacant

I was listening to a couple of back episodes of the brewing network's 'Brew Strong' show. Apparently you can get away with low oxygen levels with dried yeast as they are dried with the optimum levels of their necessary reserves (glycogen etc) so have the ability to start to metabolise the fermentable sugars in a wort with low oxygen levels. this is not so with the liquid yeasts as when they arrive to us (especially in the UK) they have been in the tube, travelled form the US and have undergon environmental stresses such as temperature fluctuation, agitation etc. There will undoubtedly been some cell death and the yeast left alive will need as much help as possible to perform optimally.

[Dennis King]

keep with this yeast most of my best beers were made with it.

[Kev888]

Thanks for all for the encouragement and advice!

Hmm, thats good to know, LB. I didn't keep rousing it - just gave it the odd swish when progress seemed disapointing but thats about all, otherwise it just sat there. Its out in a fermenting cupboard in the garage and I'm out all day so its not that convenient, however I'd intended to make a stir plate for if/when I get going with slopes so it may be worth making it sooner rather than later.

Good call, too, vacant. The aeration could be another difference I've not fully appreciated too. I did airate the wort as normal (for me) but thats not necessarily all that aggressively so I could do a more through job of it. I've not needed to go to any great lengths with it for dried yeast, so probably I've got into sloppy habbits.

Great, I'll have another go. Rousing at this point doesn't seem to be helping, but I've got quite a bit of slurry even though it didn't ferment out that fully, so i guess I could re-pitch some of this into another gallon rather than buy more vials. Or does anyone know if this is a bad idea - will my poor fermentation have selected/grown say a less representative range of cells or something like that?

Thanks again to all - very helpful.
Cheers
Kev

[staplefordbill]

I'm out all day too (at work ) but giving the demijohn a shake before I leave in the morning and as soon as I get back 10 hours later, plus another couple of shakes in the evening, seemed to give a decent crop.

i guess I could re-pitch some of this into another gallon rather than buy more vials. Or does anyone know if this is a bad idea - will my poor fermentation have selected/grown say a less representative range of cells or something like that?

With the caveat that I'm not an expert and haven't used WLP005, I'd say that I don't see why not. That yeast on the bottom will still be viable.

[gnutz2]

Hi Kev, you may remember i had a similar problem which i posted on here.

I under pitched the wl005 yeast in a 1045 og brew, which after a 36 hour lag time and many days, maybe 10 or so, it eventually fermented out to 1013, so thats 70% attenuation.

My plan was to crop and re-pitch the yeast to use in my next brew but from the slow fermentation i was a bit reluctant, but i'm now really glad i did.

I re-pitched 2/3 of the yeast collected into a 1 litre starter 24 hours before my next 1052 og brew and the fermenter allmost exploded when i put the yeast starter in, there was pretty much no lag tome at all. Its now 5 days after pitching and its at 1013 and gradually slowing down.

Also used a bit of servomyces on the starter and a tablet in the brew.

Baz

[Kev888]

I'm out all day too (at work ) but giving the demijohn a shake before I leave in the morning and as soon as I get back 10 hours later, plus another couple of shakes in the evening, seemed to give a decent crop. With the caveat that I'm not an expert and haven't used WLP005, I'd say that I don't see why not. That yeast on the bottom will still be viable.

Thats really good to know, thanks, I'll have another go rather than waiting weeks to get around to making the stir plate then. I take the car in or out of the garage about every 12hrs during the week so that should be a regularly spaced rousing even if a bit infrequent - if I remember to swish it around each time anyway.

Thanks for mentioning the caveat too, but you're much more experienced in this than me so its all useful and very much appreciated. I'm really just trying to work out whats 'likely' to work at the mo - my attempts will only be trusted to a real brew after they've made a convincing starter. Thankfully I didn't just trust the vial's instructions and pitch directly...

My plan was to crop and re-pitch the yeast to use in my next brew but from the slow fermentation i was a bit reluctant, but i'm now really glad i did.

Ah, thanks for that too, Baz. I was wondering about buying more yeast in case i'd already mucked things up, but with Bills thoughts and your own experience of just this type of thing then my initial attempt really seems worth risking some more malt with. A small projext for the weekend then

Cheers
kev

[Kev888]

Just to mention in a finale to this; it seems all the good advice on rousing/stirring was the main thing I'd not been doing, so thanks very much for that chaps!

I've been swirling both dodgy batches for several days and they've now fallen to 1014 and 1012 respectively. Thats even in the lower temperatures of my kitchen (rather than my fermenting cupboard), so the yeast seems to have worked in the end, just rather slowly - hopefully I can still use it for making splits and starters then.

Cheers
Kev