Shaken, not Strirred

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lizzard

Re: Shaken, not Strirred

Post by lizzard » Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:05 am

Just to bump this old one up again.. But I thought this would be the place to ask this.
Im thinking of wyeast smack packs vs Whitelabs vials and the differences with yeast states.
I heard Whitelabs yeast were in hibernation and wyeast were in a more active state.
How would this effect a shaken not stirred starter?
Smack and swell the smack pack?
Less time for high k?
Any adjustments to the method for each yeast type?

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orlando
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Re: Shaken, not Strirred

Post by orlando » Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:15 am

lizzard wrote:Just to bump this old one up again.. But I thought this would be the place to ask this.
Im thinking of wyeast smack packs vs Whitelabs vials and the differences with yeast states.
I heard Whitelabs yeast were in hibernation and wyeast were in a more active state.
How would this effect a shaken not stirred starter?
Smack and swell the smack pack?
Less time for high k?
Any adjustments to the method for each yeast type?
Whitelabs have upped their game recently you might want to review this first.

https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/innovation. Won't change the issue of starters you raise much though.
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YeastWhisperer

Re: Shaken, not Strirred

Post by YeastWhisperer » Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:25 pm

Wyeast and White Labs ship yeast cells that are in a state known as quiesence. A Wyeast smack pack has the advantage of being able to wake the cells up via smacking and allowing the package to swell before pitching. That being said, one can treat both manufacturer's products as interchangeable when making a shaken, not stirred starter.
Last edited by YeastWhisperer on Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

McMullan

Re: Shaken, not Strirred

Post by McMullan » Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:53 pm

Quiescent, but ticking over, perhaps in a stressful environment. So by the time we get our grubby hands on them, a starter of some kind is always advisable.

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Aleman
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Re: Shaken, not Strirred

Post by Aleman » Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:59 pm

Just about to wake up a WLP830 for a Wheat beer on Monday Best before date is Nov 10 2015. . . . Will start it in a Shaken Starter tonight and hopefully it will be giving it guns on Monday evening.

McMullan

Re: Shaken, not Strirred

Post by McMullan » Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:55 pm

Aleman wrote:Just about to wake up a WLP830 for a Wheat beer on Monday Best before date is Nov 10 2015. . . . Will start it in a Shaken Starter tonight and hopefully it will be giving it guns on Monday evening.
BB 10/11/2015? Grubby hands, indeed, Aleman =D> I'm sure it'll be acceptable [-o<

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Jocky
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Re: Shaken, not Strirred

Post by Jocky » Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:43 pm

I quite like this method for the fact that I can screw down the lid and give it another shake at any time.
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McMullan

Re: Shaken, not Strirred

Post by McMullan » Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:58 pm

Just to be clear, I was implying Aleman's WLP830 is past its best and a one step starter might not be a guarantee. Whether his starter is shaken, stirred or just sat there, is not as important as prepping a starter in the first place. I now have the facilities to assess shaken vs stirred starters. If shaken can be shown to be better than stirred, I'll change the way I prep yeast starters for sure.

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Aleman
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Re: Shaken, not Strirred

Post by Aleman » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:22 pm

I tend to agree . . . I've actually prepared several starter worts today, as I want to have a go at recovering the Konig Hefe yeast, so have a 100, 300, 600ml series for that. So I could go with 2 One litre starters sequentially . . .but then I'll be pitching to much starter wort

Decisions, Dilemmas

McMullan

Re: Shaken, not Strirred

Post by McMullan » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:07 pm

Aleman wrote:I tend to agree . . . I've actually prepared several starter worts today, as I want to have a go at recovering the Konig Hefe yeast, so have a 100, 300, 600ml series for that. So I could go with 2 One litre starters sequentially . . .but then I'll be pitching to much starter wort

Decisions, Dilemmas
I'd postpone Monday's event, mate. Sorry :( Get a smaller starter (500ml) with yeast nutrient on the go at 'ale' temperatures and let it finish. You might be lucky if it gets out of lag phase by Monday? Then step up to 2L, either after decanting the spent wort or adding 1.5L more concentrated wort to achieve 2L @ 1.040. Then you could brew around the starter or bung it in the fridge and use it when you're ready, which would allow you to get rid of most of the spent starter wort, if that's a concern. That's how I'd do it anyway.

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Goulders
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Re: Shaken, not Strirred

Post by Goulders » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:41 pm

Shaken is also recommended by Brewlab - at least for the trial others and I undertook for them

McMullan

Re: Shaken, not Strirred

Post by McMullan » Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:10 pm

Goulders wrote:Shaken is also recommended by Brewlab - at least for the trial others and I undertook for them
Did anyone write up the findings?

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Goulders
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Re: Shaken, not Strirred

Post by Goulders » Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:02 pm

Not yet. The beers have only just been submitted. The trial wasn't for shaken or stirred

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Re: Shaken, not Strirred

Post by f00b4r » Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:10 pm

Goulders wrote:Shaken is also recommended by Brewlab - at least for the trial others and I undertook for them
I wonder if this was because they think this is a fantastic method or if it was they thought it might be a bit more consistent between people than using different sure plates at different speeds etc? Anyone in the trial asked for Brewlab's views on it?

YeastWhisperer

Re: Shaken, not Strirred

Post by YeastWhisperer » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:11 am

No, it is because the preferred method for growing cultures is shaking. Laboratories use a device known as an orbital shaker to automate the process. If you have the opportunity to visit White Labs, you will discover that they have a very large orbital shaker in their culture propagation laboratory. Stir plates are primarily used for mixing solutions, not growing cultures.

My method takes advantage of the fact that foam has a very large specific surface area. Air contains 21 parts per hundred oxygen. Wort saturates at 8 parts per million oxygen when aerating with air. Most of the brewing cultures that we use fall into classes O1 and O2 with respect to oxygen demands. The oxygen demands for class O1 yeast strains can be met with less than 8 parts per million dissolved oxygen. The oxygen demands for class O2 yeast strains can be met with 8 parts per million dissolved oxygen. Shaking a starter until it is almost all foam in a vessel that is at least four times the volume of the starter pretty much ensures that the wort will be saturated with 8 parts per million dissolved oxygen, and the dissolved oxygen is available immediately for sterol and unsaturated fatty acid biosynthesis.

One last thing, brewing yeast cultures do not need to be stirred due to the fact that most exhibit what is known as NewFlo flocculation (a.k.a. NewFlo phenotype). NewFlo strains will not flocculate until glucose, manose, sucrose, and maltose have been reduced to a genetically set level; therefore, there is no need to stir to keep the cells in suspension.

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