Attenuation - Dried vs Liquid

Share your experiences of using brewing yeast.
Post Reply
User avatar
MarkA
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 592
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:26 am
Location: Aberdeenshire

Attenuation - Dried vs Liquid

Post by MarkA » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:44 pm

This may seem like a stupid question (I have yet to use liquid yeast) but does dried yeast attenuate lower than liquid?

The reason I ask is that in Greg Hughes' Home Brew Beer, all of the final gravity figures are above 1.010 using liquid yeast.

For example; I have followed the Czech Pilsner recipe and used both MJ Bohemian Lager yeast and Saflager 34/70 and my FG was 1.004 for both, mashing at 65 degrees. In the book, the FG is 1.014 with Wyeast 2001. The OG was 1.048

The same goes for the Summer Ale recipe. Mash is 65 degrees, OG 1.038 and FG 1.012 using Wyeast 1098, whereas I used Danstar Nottingham and was down to 1.004

I have only had a couple of beers that have finished above 1.010 using dried yeast, a Barley Wine and a Christmas Stout, both were big beers (8 - 9%)

Secla
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 637
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:26 am

Re: Attenuation - Dried vs Liquid

Post by Secla » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:17 am

have you tried a different hydrometer ? 1.004 isnt normal and would make a pretty dry beer

User avatar
Jocky
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2738
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:50 pm
Location: Epsom, Surrey, UK

Re: Attenuation - Dried vs Liquid

Post by Jocky » Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:05 am

Yeah, I'd be checking the calibration of my hydrometer - I've only ever produced beers down to 1.004 with saison or Belgian yeasts that dry out the beer.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

User avatar
orlando
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7197
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: Attenuation - Dried vs Liquid

Post by orlando » Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:36 am

If it isn't the hydrometer then a wild yeast infection could do that. Apart from being very dry what is the beer tasting like?
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

MTW
Drunk as a Skunk
Posts: 905
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:04 pm
Location: Just outside Scarbados

Re: Attenuation - Dried vs Liquid

Post by MTW » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:38 am

Also, the mash temperature would become less relevant if the runnings were taking a long time to get over 75C or so: maybe if you drain the whole lot into a cool vessel before going onto heat or something. Quite how much difference that would make, I'm not sure, but it's something to look at if relevant.

PS I did read an article once that suggested the method of producing dried yeast does tend to create a more attenuative strain, so there may well be some truth in your hypothesis, along with something else that is getting you down to quite such a low FG.
Busy in the Summer House Brewery

User avatar
Kev888
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7701
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:22 pm
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: Attenuation - Dried vs Liquid

Post by Kev888 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:57 am

There is a wider range of yeast available in liquid so more opportunity to be selective, and the drying process does impose some limitations. BUT in general there is no great divide between liquid and dried in this respect, and you are getting unusually low FGs with dried so this would seem to have some different cause. As above I'd check your hydrometer accuracy and also thermometers - and also play with where you measure mash temperature, in case the mash is uneven.

Mash duration too can have an effect; some people who mash overnight have reported greater attenuation than more traditional 60-90min mashes at the same temperature. I guess it gives longer to create simple sugars.
Kev

User avatar
MarkA
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 592
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:26 am
Location: Aberdeenshire

Re: Attenuation - Dried vs Liquid

Post by MarkA » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:34 am

Thank you for all your replies.

I have just checked my hydrometer and it's reading 1.000 in 20 degree water. I use the Hydrometer adjustment calculator in Beersmith if the temp is higher or lower than 20.

As for off-flavours, I have certainly not noticed any and have never had a bottle bomb, or even any that seem over-primed. I was recently given a couple of bottles of homebrew by a friend and immediately detected an infection and have never noticed anything like that in my beer. For the past 2 years I have sent my blonde ale to the NHBC and last years' one first prize in the category and this year, although scoring low for not being to style, no off-flavours were detected.

My thermometer is a Hannah Checktemp with an accuracy of ±0.2°C. The built in calibration reads -0.1 and was checked for accuarcy about 3 months ago using the ice/water method. I also occasionally check with a mercury thermometer and it reads the same

Mash duration has been between 60 minutes and 90 minutes over all 44 brews, I have yet to mash for longer.

I usually check the mash temperature in the middle, and towards all 4 corners of the tun. It does usually differ and levels out when stirred. If I am aiming for 66, it may read 65 in one place, and 67 in another, but never higher or lower than that.

User avatar
orlando
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7197
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: Attenuation - Dried vs Liquid

Post by orlando » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:40 pm

Seems to rule out everything but a wild yeast infection. There may not be off flavours as such but a beer going down to 1.004 has to have something "distinctive" about it.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

User avatar
MarkA
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 592
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:26 am
Location: Aberdeenshire

Re: Attenuation - Dried vs Liquid

Post by MarkA » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:59 am

orlando wrote:There may not be off flavours as such but a beer going down to 1.004 has to have something "distinctive" about it.
Something 'distinctive' that 4 UKNHC competition judges didn't pick up on?

User avatar
orlando
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7197
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: Attenuation - Dried vs Liquid

Post by orlando » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:53 pm

MarkA wrote:
orlando wrote:There may not be off flavours as such but a beer going down to 1.004 has to have something "distinctive" about it.
Something 'distinctive' that 4 UKNHC competition judges didn't pick up on?
Extra dryness maybe their thing. In a Czech Pilsner wouldn't be amiss. Sorry you didn't like the answer, just trying to help. :roll:
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

User avatar
MarkA
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 592
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:26 am
Location: Aberdeenshire

Re: Attenuation - Dried vs Liquid

Post by MarkA » Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:36 pm

Now now :roll: It was a genuine/valid question. As much as I couldn't detect a subtle infection in my beer, I just find it hard to believe that a judge wouldn't in a lightly-hopped blonde ale. Even if they did like the dryness, would they be able to give it high marks with an infection in a competition setting, or without at least mentioning it in the comments?

User avatar
orlando
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7197
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: Attenuation - Dried vs Liquid

Post by orlando » Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:59 pm

MarkA wrote:Now now :roll: It was a genuine/valid question. As much as I couldn't detect a subtle infection in my beer, I just find it hard to believe that a judge wouldn't in a lightly-hopped blonde ale. Even if they did like the dryness, would they be able to give it high marks with an infection in a competition setting, or without at least mentioning it in the comments?
A beer going that low is unusual, your question was about the yeast but the clue may actually be found in the grain bill. Mashes rich in enzymes, i.e. high diastatic power, (Pilsner malt, Pale malt) will produce more fermentable worts since they contain a lager amount of beta-amylase and limit dextrinase which can produce more maltose than mashes with lower diastatic power (Munich malt or large amounts of unmalted grains) assuming the same saccharification rest temperature. If you didn't use something like Munich or unmalted grains then the recipe not the yeast is the "issue". A beer finishing at 1.004 is going to be "distinctive" to one finishing in double digits, but not necessarily a fault or infection.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

User avatar
MarkA
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 592
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:26 am
Location: Aberdeenshire

Re: Attenuation - Dried vs Liquid

Post by MarkA » Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:52 pm

orlando wrote:A beer going that low is unusual, your question was about the yeast but the clue may actually be found in the grain bill
Thanks Orlando. Most of my brews have quite simple grain bills so don't use a great deal of unmalted grains. This doesn't explain why my FG is so low when following Greg Hughes' recipes, but I think part of the problem could be with my mash tun. I only check the temperature at the start of the mash, and have never checked it at the end to see if it has dropped, except for once when I first got it and it only dropped by a degree. This would be ok for a 66/67 degree mash, but less so for a 65 degree mash (especially if part of the uneven mash is at 64 degrees). In winter it could well be losing a lot more than a degree so I think my next project is to insulate the tun as I brew in a draughty garage to see if that makes a difference :idea:

User avatar
Kev888
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7701
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:22 pm
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: Attenuation - Dried vs Liquid

Post by Kev888 » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:21 pm

Most potential issues have been addressed in this thread (unless you massively over-pitch perhaps). It is really quite unlikely for you to be getting these results without it being at least one of them, so a re-evaluation may be in order. The mash temperature not being maintained (even just around the top or edges of the grain bed) could be such a case, and would certainly head things towards a lower FG, especially in conjunction with a very pale (fermentable) grain bill. And/or it could be a combination of tiny things adding up to be more significant.
Kev

Post Reply