Can I improve my yeast starter?

Share your experiences of using brewing yeast.
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Troutman47
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Can I improve my yeast starter?

Post by Troutman47 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:19 pm

H Guys, I just wanna check I'm doing my yeast starters right and getting the full benefit from them.

I've already got my yeast from previous starters.
A week before I need it, I make up 1l of wort from DME and add the yeast from the jar to this. I pour off most of the wort from the jar, swirl and add to the gallon plastic bottle and shake like mad!
I let that ferment at room temp for 2-3 days. (Probably made on the Saturday or Sunday)

I make up 2.5l of wort, decant most of the previous 1l and add the 2.5l, shake like mad and then shake morning and evening until the Saturday where I give it a shake and fill up a jam jar to store in the fridge for next time. The rest is left to settle until brew day on a Sunday.

When it's needed on brew day, I decant off most of the wort and add what's left to my brew.

Is there anything I can do to improve this?
Activity in the FV has started by the next morning sometimes a bit later than that!
I'm thinking with a good starter I'd see activity within a few hours.

Cheers!

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Wonkydonkey
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Re: Can I improve my yeast starter?

Post by Wonkydonkey » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:54 pm

There's many ways to do a starter, everybody has there way that suits them.

I'm not knocking your method, but,, you know yeast like to consume O2 and reproduce (bud/daughter cells) that's why its a bit slower than you want it tobe.. They will use O2 first..

Once O2 is used up they make alcohol. But you need plenty of yeast to do the job, so it's a balancing act really
So do you airate your wort, and add just enough yeast, to make the alcohol. Or do you over pitch and not airate your wort.
And there is a lag phase..

Anyhow,,I'm sure someone will be along soon and say there way is a good way, it's like most things we want the best way but everybody's way is good or good enough for them

Cheers
WD

Edit; I was thinking have you read this, it's a few peeps way of doing starters.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=70926#p743798
Cheers
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Jocky
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Re: Can I improve my yeast starter?

Post by Jocky » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:19 am

I'm no yeast expert, but it seems to me that the subject of yeast growth and starters is perhaps one of those areas where there's a lot of 'experts' who can't substantiate the techniques they are evangelising. I've read that whole thread that Wonky has posted multiple times, and you can see that the two guys on there that appear to know their stuff are struggling to agree on certain things. :mrgreen:

I think that it probably doesn't help that there are hundreds of brewing yeasts available now, and they all behave slightly differently. Even the 'same' yeast from different companies (US-05/WLP001/Wyeast 1056 etc) seem to behave slightly differently when compared: https://www.experimentalbrew.com/experi ... 056-wlp001
and
http://brulosophy.com/2017/04/03/yeast- ... t-results/

With that caveat in place - to me there doesn't appear to be anything particularly wrong with your technique, but ultimately the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If you are getting the desired profile from your yeast in the finished beer, then don't change anything for that beer/yeast. Mind that the same technique might not work for another yeast.

If you're not getting what you want then you need to decide if it's your yeast starter that's not right. What to look for?

1. Beers that smell/taste alcoholic indicate that your ferment was not optimal. A bit of 'booze' in a 7%+ beer is to be expected. Nail varnish is not.
2. Equally if you are getting fruity esters where there should be none then you've either picked the wrong yeast or again a sub-optimal ferment.

Both of these issues can both be caused by either fermentation temperature problems, or an insufficient amount of healthy yeast being pitched at the start of the ferment.

Assuming you have fermentation temperature control in place then the main thing I'd investigate in your yeast starter technique is whether to pitch your big starter at high krausen, which should be only 12-18 hours in.

You should see a faster start to the ferment this way.
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Re: Can I improve my yeast starter?

Post by McMullan » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:28 pm

Troutman47, I'm not sure why you step up from 1L to 2.5L. This is unlikely to produce lots of healthy, vigorous yeast cells. It probably promotes some growth, but it is more likely just feeding old, less vigorous cells. Step ups ideally should be 5-10X the volume of the previous culture volume. I go with 10X myself. If you need a 2.5L starter, scale down the 1L to 250-500ml. If you know you have healthy yeast cells, 250ml should be sufficient and it saves resources.

Edit: Just to be clear, 1/2-1 tsp of good yeast slurry is plenty for a 250ml starter. It filters out a lot of crap and promotes growth of new cells. The key is starting with 'good' yeast cells.
Last edited by McMullan on Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dennis King
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Re: Can I improve my yeast starter?

Post by Dennis King » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:54 pm

McMullan wrote:Troutman47, I'm not sure why you step up from 1L to 2.5L. This is unlikely to produce lots of healthy, vigorous yeast cells. It probably promotes some growth, but it is more likely just feeding old, less vigorous cells. Step ups ideally should be 5-10X the volume of the previous culture volume. I go with 10X myself. If you need a 2.5L starter, scale down the 1L to 250-500ml. If you know you have healthy yeast cells, 250ml should be sufficient sufficient and it saves resources.
I step up X10

McMullan

Re: Can I improve my yeast starter?

Post by McMullan » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:35 pm

And I bet you get great fermentations, Dennis 8)

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Dennis King
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Re: Can I improve my yeast starter?

Post by Dennis King » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:54 pm

McMullan wrote:And I bet you get great fermentations, Dennis 8)
Yep some strains are hard to keep in the FV.

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Kev888
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Re: Can I improve my yeast starter?

Post by Kev888 » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:39 pm

The 5x to 10x step up is my way too, usually towards 10x. As near as I can guess it anyway. But the first step size depends on estimating how many viable cells you are starting with, which is affected by how old your initial yeast is (the Mr Malty calculator can help). It may be that you can leap straight into the full starter volume, or you may need more initial steps.

IMO unless you have a microscope and count cells (which most of us don't) it is all going to be down to rough estimates of what you're starting with and how many cells will be created in the starter or steps. Even then people disagree on what optimum pitching rates should actually be! So theres a degree of experimentation involved in finding what works best for you and your process. A long lag time, slow fermentation rate or unusually high FG may indicate room for improvement, as well as any flavours which may derive from stressed yeast. Personally I tend to pitch into my fermenter at the end of brew day, and if theres no outward activity at all by the following morning it is unusual, but it may not be very vigorous by then and I certainly don't worry if nothing much happens within a few hours of pitching - 'some' lag is normal.

One thing to take care of with your decanting is that all/most of the yeast have settled and you aren't discarding lots of healthy yeast still suspended in the starter wort. As well as losing yeast, this can mean that you are inadvertently selecting cells which have settled out early - possibly through being more flocculant or less healthy. If you find yourself short of time for settling out between steps, then (vessel size permitting) you can just add fresh wort (without decanting the old stuff) once the preceding step has reached its peak, or high krausen.
Kev

Troutman47
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Re: Can I improve my yeast starter?

Post by Troutman47 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:02 am

Hey Guys,
Thanks for everyone's input, it's always interesting reading others view points and gives me food for thought.

Just after I posted the question I remembered I'd bookmarked YeastWhisperer OP on the shaken, not stirred method which is what I've been doing. I also bookmarked a post by Starwave in which IPA replied with his system of top cropping.

As I'm not entirely happy with my yeast starters this is what I've decided to do.

YeastWhisperer says to pitch a 1l starter after 12-18 hrs at high krausen
IPA takes 500ml of his fermenting wort 36hrs after pitching when it's at high krausen for his next brew.

This seems a good combination and would suit me

So if the wife can't decide what we're doing next weekend I'll give this a bash!

Thanks guys!
Happy Brewing!

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Re: Can I improve my yeast starter?

Post by BrannigansLove » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:53 am

I typically make 20L batches, and follow the Shaken not Stirred method for making starters. I'll use a 1L starter prepared the previous day for any batch up to 1.055, and a 2L starter for anything over, pitching the full volume into the wort at high krausen. I generally build the starters 0.5L bigger than described, and save the excess in a sanitised jam jar for next time.

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orlando
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Re: Can I improve my yeast starter?

Post by orlando » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:33 pm

Troutman47 wrote: IPA takes 500ml of his fermenting wort 36hrs after pitching when it's at high krausen for his next brew.
This is a good method but bearing in mind Kev's comment about selectivity I have changed the way I do this to taking a sample every day over 3 days, putting the sample into a fridge at about 22c, this ferments quite quickly, I then decant the spent wort to make room for the next sample and repeat. This gives a nice mix of yeast of slightly different stages of fermentation. I then step this up in the usual way.
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