Help please with Lintner Values

[greenxpaddy]

Hi all

I am attempting a rebrew of this recipe this week

Acht Jahren Dunkel

Fermentable Colour lb: oz Grams Ratio
Dark Wheat Malt 15 EBC 6 lbs. 9.8 oz 3000 grams 34.9%
Flaked Wheat 0 EBC 3 lbs. 15.4 oz 1800 grams 20.9%
Bohemian Pils Malt 4 EBC 2 lbs. 10.3 oz 1200 grams 14%
Munich Malt 20 EBC 2 lbs. 10.3 oz 1200 grams 14%
Carapils Malt 4 EBC 1 lbs. 8.7 oz 700 grams 8.1%
Caramunich III 120 EBC 0 lbs. 10.5 oz 300 grams 3.5%
Carafa III 1200 EBC 0 lbs. 7.0 oz 200 grams 2.3%
Belgian Aromatic Malt 50 EBC 0 lbs. 7.0 oz 200 grams 2.3%

The reason I post the recipe is because I wanted to calculate the mash Lintner to make sure that I was getting full conversion. I didn't particularly notice bad conversion last time but the Lintner values for dark wheat malt is quite hard to find on the net. Does anyone have a full set of Lintner values they have picked up over time?

The main reason for the focus on Lintner values was the apparent recent poor conversion with my Raspy Wit grist:

Bohemian Pils Malt 4 EBC 2 lbs. 3.3 oz 1000 grams 22.8%
Dingemans Pils Malt 2.8 EBC 2 lbs. 10.3 oz 1200 grams 27.4%
Flaked Wheat 0 EBC 3 lbs. 8.4 oz 1600 grams 36.5%
Flaked Oats 0 EBC 0 lbs. 14.0 oz 400 grams 9.1%
Caramunich III 90 EBC 0 lbs. 2.8 oz 130 grams 1.8%

From what I can gather off the net there seems to be some disagreement across different sources for exact Lintner values for certain grains and also for the required Lintner value for the mash and whether you actually include 'steepable' grains in the equation.

Consensus appears to be that 35 degrees Lintner is a self converting grain, but does the overall mash need to be as high as 75 degrees Lintner average as someone has said or is that nonsense? If grist averages a value above 35 degrees is that ok?

I cannot find a true value for Dark Wheat Malt . Wiki Home Brew refers to 10% DP. Do they mean it can convert 10% of itself or it can be 10% of the grist or what? Some other sources seem to suggest Dark Wheat Malt could be as much 60 degrees Lintner.

The other thing is Belgian Pils Malt seems to come in at 60 degrees L on a lot of sources versus 110L for Bohemian (German) Pils Malt even though both are 2-row. If I take those values for my Raspy Wit the mash Lintner is averaged at just 43 degrees L. Which by some peoples measure is too low but by the measure of self conversion is ok. I can't get a definitive value for Dingemans Pils Malt off the net which would be helpful. Castle Maltings equivalent seems to come in at 78 degrees L.

For my Dunkel I get a mash average of 37 degrees L excluding steepable grains if I use 10 degrees L for dark Wheat Malt and 30 for Aromatic Malt, 70 for Carapils and Munich. That's near the limit so I would need to ensure the mash ph hits nicely and the temp is good as well as perhaps leaving it for a bit longer than the standard 90 min mash.

Over to you!

[greenxpaddy]

No takers?

I've emailed Weyermann's lab manager to see if he will give me their Lintner values for dark wheat malt and Bohemian Pils Malt (non floor malted)

[Blackaddler]

If there's no info on the maltsters website, I would email them.

Otherwise, you're only going to be able to take an average of what you can find on the web.

Such as...
Beersmith grains list.

A list of Weyermann Malt specs.

[greenxpaddy]

Thanks for that.

Didn't show any DP values unfortunately.

I have a had a mooch on Castle Maltings site as they give the most info. The DP is relative to the kilning temp ( and I would have thought kilning duration but I have not that info). Now then, their Munich type is kilned at the same kind of temp as their dark wheat malt so I am putting my neck out here suggesting that the DP of the two should be about the same. i.e. 62 degrees L for kiln temps at 100-105C. By the time the kiln temp is upped to 110C you are in Aromatic Malt territory and the corresponding DP of 30 degrees L. So I am guessing that Dark Wheat Malt - as I have also heard it self converts - must be in the region of 35-62 degrees L. But I cannot be sure.

It does correlate with this source

http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/01/04/di ... your-beer/

[thefirstleachy]

I don't know if this article will be of use or not in answering any of your questions.

http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/bmg/noonan.html

I didn't know what you were asking until I googled it and read the article. I know it doesn't have any figures for you but if I understand it correctly the figures can vary greatly between malsters and even lots within malsters. Therefore you're probably best getting the info directly from the maltsters.

[thefirstleachy]

Some more reading, if you haven't read them already! Seems to suggest you need at least 70 Lintner for the whole mash.

http://www.picobrewery.com/askarchive/diastatic.htm

and from Brupaks - dark wheat malt may have as much as 70% diastatic power.

http://www.brupaks.com/BRUPAKS%20GRAIN% ... %20WEB.htm

[greenxpaddy]

Some more reading, if you haven't read them already! Seems to suggest you need at least 70 Lintner for the whole mash.

http://www.picobrewery.com/askarchive/diastatic.htm

Yep - reddit. In fact this is the one I have most dispute with

and from Brupaks - dark wheat malt may have as much as 70% diastatic power.

http://www.brupaks.com/BRUPAKS%20GRAIN% ... %20WEB.htm

I think you have read that wrong. They say up to 70% of grist. DP is not measured in %.

[thefirstleachy]

Yep I've misinterpreted the following sentence from that link haven't I :-

"The diastatic power of each malt is shown as the maximum percentage that is recommended in the grist."

I understand diastatic power is measured in lintner or Windisch-Kolbach units. So they are saying that dark wheat malt can account for up to 70% of the grist. So surely that means its diastatic power is less than 35 lintner so it needs at least 30% of other grains in the grist to help with the mash.

There is a graph in the following link which may help (if you haven't read it already ) with guestimations based on colour, along with other information.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... Efficiency

I think I may have to stop now as my head is hurting.

[greenxpaddy]

That's a great chart.

Shows though just how variable the Lintner values are though as quoted online.

Based upon Castle Maltings Lovibond values I would place Dark Wheat Malt from Germany at 6 Lovibond / 15 EBC and consequently a Lintner value of +/- 48. Same as CM's light Munich. Their straight Munich does not have values but I can guess that would be c.30-35 as per the chart.

Although in theory average mash lintner of 35 plus is ok I would suggest that based upon some variability in the mashing process away from the prefect conversion conditions, i.e. temp, duration and ph it would be wise to give a bit of room for this and to aim for a mash Lintner of at least 50 and perhaps higher. It would just mean that the lower the average is the more attention needs to be given to how long you mash for and the water treatment.

Can't remember who gave Munich a value of 70. That was clearly very wrong. Just goes to show you can't believe everything that is posted on the internet. How many people would know that Belgian Pils Malt is only 70 Lintner?

[thefirstleachy]

After further attempts at trying to digest that article I was just about to say the same thing about average lintner values for the mash. If it is an average of 35 lintner then you run the risk of the mash having to be perfect in terms of PH, temperature, length of time and mash thickness etc for things to go to plan. So as you say that's probably why they say 40 lintner or above should be the target to account for any discrepancies.

Interestingly it also depends on the type of mash your are doing. If you are doing a decoction mash then the process kills some of the enzymes and therefore reduces the diastatic power which could be why some of the information suggests 70 lintner as an average.

Well in trying to find what you would think is a simple figure for dark wheat malt I end up learning loads! Thanks.