Fermentation

[Venta Dragon]

Hi All,

I've been brewing on and off for years but am now trying to get into it properly. I've recently read a book which says that after 4-5 days of fermentation I should then rack my beer off into demijons for the remainder of the fermentation. Now I don't have space for a lot of demijons, but I do have a spare fermenting bin that I could rack my brew into. However 1) is it a good idea to rack off after 4-5 days in the first place and 2) does it matter if I use a ferminting bin rather than demijons. All tips greatly appreciated.

Andy

[Parva]

I don't know what you are reading and don't know what you are brewing, is this wine or beer and if beer (assuming AG given the forum you posted it in) where did you read this twaddle?

Many (myself included) leave in the primary FV for 7-14 days and just keg / bottle from that. Some do secondary and if that's what works for them then fair enough. As for doing the secondary in demijohns, I have no idea where this mad idea originates. Whilst it would work I don't see the need for it. More info required methinks.

[boingy]

I have no idea where this mad idea originates.

Dave Line.

[Philipek]

Many (myself included) leave in the primary FV for 7-14 days and just keg / bottle from that. Some do secondary and if that's what works for them then fair enough. As for doing the secondary in demijohns, I have no idea where this mad idea originates. Whilst it would work I don't see the need for it.

What kind of beers are you brewing?

I ask because I bottled my first AG two weeks ago after 15 days in primary. I did 18000 feet's mini mash. I'm on another forum that has mostly folk from the US and they leave their beer in primary for ages - about a month, sometimes longer. However, I think that they like BIG beers, Apfelwine, barley wine, trappists, bocks, imperial this, imperial that. If I were to look at the fermenter for too long I'd get fall down drunk.

The reason, as I understand it, that it is suggested that home brewers rack to secondary is because, with the beer sitting on the yeast cake, there is a danger of autolysis (what's the pronunciation? au-TOH-lis SIS or AUto-LIE-sis?) which produces diabolical smells likened unto burning rubber by the polite and syphilitic chimp sh*t by the not-so-polite.

They say on the other forum that autolysis is pretty much a myth and that very few homebrewers have actually seen this animal in the wild, hence their keeping their beer in primary for ages. When I said that I had bottled my beer after 15 days in primary, they responded that that was too short a time in the fermenter for almost all kinds of beer. Now, here, people are keeping beer in the fermenter for as short a time as one week! Conflicting information about home brewing? That hardly ever happens?

Phil

[Venta Dragon]

Thanks guys. I read it in a book which turns out to have been written in America so hence the confusion.

[Scooby]

After primary fermentation, 4-5 days, the beer is no longer protected by the yeast head and if the fermentation has taken place in an open container needs to be racked into a closed one. It can then be left there for an extended period, as mentioned DL for one recommended this and although not followed to the letter these days in not inappropriate.

[RabMaxwell]

I think autoyisis happening largely depends on temperature to a large degree.I often have my beer in the primary for up to 6 weeks & never had a problem as the beer is under slight pressure & kept at 5oc.

[Parva]

I have no idea where this mad idea originates.

Dave Line.

Ah, I should've known. I actually have the book too but only ever took recipes from it (and updated them to todays requirements).

[Venta Dragon]

The is called 'The Big Book of Brewing' by David Line. I'm pretty new to proper brewing (having first started as a teenager trying to make cheap booze...)

[damo2576]

I ask because I bottled my first AG two weeks ago after 15 days in primary. I did 18000 feet's mini mash.

I've just done this too - well, its fermenting now - how did your fermention go? I got 1040 OG then down to 1018 very quickly but doesnt seem to have moved far from there...

Hope thats not toooo off topic...

[Philipek]

I ask because I bottled my first AG two weeks ago after 15 days in primary. I did 18000 feet's mini mash.

I've just done this too - well, its fermenting now - how did your fermention go? I got 1040 OG then down to 1018 very quickly but doesnt seem to have moved far from there...

Hope thats not toooo off topic...

I hope so too, but the thread title is fermentation...

I've done it twice now. My fermentation was fine. Bubbling away after 24 hours or so. I used Safale 04 for the first and Danstar Nottingham for the second. I am paranoid about this brewing business, and among all the paranoid things I did (cleaned the kitchen ceiling for one) I primed (I think that's the right word) the yeast. I rehydrated it at 33 degrees. Twenty minutes later I gave it a lovely breakfast of invert corn sugar at 21 degrees, stroked the pyrex jug it was in, said lots of nice things to boost its self esteem and threw it in the cooled wort.

Then I read here that people sprinkle dry yeast straight in. I almost did that for my second batch but got too antsy and prepared the yeast just as before.

I had different problems; my gravity was insane. First batch was 1070, second was 1060.

Try giving your fermenter a swirl, kick up the yeast cake. I've heard that some employ that technique.

Autolysis - of all the beer maladies, this would appear to be the worst. Yeast clears up oxidation, esters from too high a fermentation temp, and countless other things. I read many post of people saying "should I ditch my beer". They are invariably told to let it do its thing. However, as you say, Chris, if you get hit with autolysis that really is the end of the beer. That's why I bottled before the three weeks.

I'm in Canada. We don't have nice things like polypins and pressure barrels out here. I'm thinking of getting some carboys, but I might continue with the way I've done my first brew - bottle after a fortnight.

[Philipek]

Right. I got side tracked by my obsession with autolysis.

I wanted to know something about length of fermentation.

We know when the primary fermentation is finished. The gravity is the same two days in a row, and we know it's not stuck because it's within the range prescribed by the recipe.

But...

How do we know when the secondary fermentation is over? How do we know when to bottle? Whether I want to risk autolysis and keep the beer in the primary fermentation vessel like the Americans do, or whether I rack to a secondary, I'm still completely in the dark as to when it should be bottled. Are there any recommendations on this?

Phil

[stevezx7r]

Right. I got side tracked by my obsession with autolysis.

I wanted to know something about length of fermentation.

We know when the primary fermentation is finished. The gravity is the same two days in a row, and we know it's not stuck because it's within the range prescribed by the recipe.

But...

How do we know when the secondary fermentation is over? How do we know when to bottle? Whether I want to risk autolysis and keep the beer in the primary fermentation vessel like the Americans do, or whether I rack to a secondary, I'm still completely in the dark as to when it should be bottled. Are there any recommendations on this?

Phil

The rule of thumb I stick by is (for a standard ale) give it a minimum of 5 days in the primary (once it's at it's expected terminal gravity) to retain some diacetyl flavours (these get re-absorbed by the yeast after fermentation is over) - I tend to aim for 7 days to achieve this result. Or, again if making a standard ale, leave it in the FV for 10 days to ensure most/all of the diacetyl has been eaten by the yeast. Much longer than a couple of weeks could result in autolosys becoming more apparent as one by one the yeast cells die and begin to have an effect on the flavour

As for knowing when secondary fermentation is over, that depends. If the beer being made is at a cold temperature i.e 12C for a lager then it will take longer to ferment fully. If it's warmer i.e 20+C it will happen more quickly. However, it's not a good idea to overheat the yeast in an attempt to make things happen faster as odd flavours will develop.

As for when you should rack from secondary, the thing to remember here is what are you racking it too? If it's going to be carbonated "naturally" in a bottle then you need some healthy yeast cells to be present in the beer. This can be achieved by racking after say a week (or once the beer is "bright") or you could let it drop as clear as you can (say two weeks or even three plus weeks if under more controlled/cooler temps). Then, you could re-pitch fresh yeast to bottle condition.

My personal method is the 7 to 10 days in the primary, then racked off to bottles or a keg, no priming of the bottles - I let them naturally carbonate - whereas I force carbonate my keg and fine it with gelatine.

When racking directly from the primary FV the bottles do tend to have more yeast sediment in them but this doesn't bother me too much.

[Philipek]

Steve, that's great advice and information. I had a hazy idea about diacetyl and other yeast poop that was to be cleared up. It's a characteristic of the beer I want to drink, so it's not so bad to bottle within a month.

Thanks a lot. You've put my mind at rest. I'm going to bottle after 15 - 20 days.

Chaps over in the states leave their beer in the primary for months, although I have the suspicion that they're brewing massive imperial stouts or IPAs. All I want's bitter. You can get it in the pub here but it's as fizzy as coke and costs 5 quid.

Just one thing. You add no priming sugar to the bottles? This is the first time I've heard of this. I've a bottle of wort from the last batch sitting in the fridge waiting for bottling day. I didn't think that beer would carbonate with out fermentable sugars.

Phil

[stevezx7r]

As long as the yeast is viable (and present) and some residual sugards remain, the beer will carbonate naturally without the use of sugar. It does take a little longer to reach full carbonation, but, as an example, my last batch (the TTL Clone in my sig) was perfectly carbonated within three weeks. I always found my bottles had more sediment at the bottom if I used priming sugars but without the extra sugars it has far less so when I poured a beer I had little to no yeast leave the bottle.

Win-win situation