Phenolic taste

[beermonsta]

Is there a LOT of trub on the yeast head?
Is there the impression of a lot of gunk dropping in the fermenter?
What is consistent in your recipe?

No, no excessive trub on head, none on the bottom (just a 1/2 inch layer of nice 'sparkling' tasting yeast), as for consistency...only the yeast and water (and of course the MO malt from leyland - which im certain is top notch.)
hence the fact I'm going to try a different yeast and bottled water. Can't wait to see the checkout person at ASDA when I buy 30 bottles of smart price water

[dba27]

I seem to be having the same problem as beermonsta and am going to try water treatment. Does anyone use CRS? Do I still need to boil off my water before using CRS in order to reduce chlorine or will CRS do that for me.

Regards

dba27

[beermonsta]

just found this post...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27854

I have tasted over-sparged beer, it has a 'husky' flavour and an unpleasant mouthfeel (like a dry sensation between the tongue and the roof of the mouth).

I used to do that all the time ! Well,not all the time but it was an occasional occurence which had me baffled. I think it was someone on this very forum who pointed out the error of my ways - thanks,whoever you were! Now I stop when the runnings reach 1010,strictly no less,and that's measured at whatever temp the runnings are without adjustment. Result? Consistently brilliantly clear ale with no hint of that dreadful astringency.

another think to add to the list of don't do's for the next brew then!

[blackadder]

I continue to get similar problems. The vast majority of my carefully sculpted brews end up not quite to the mark, and leave odd tastes at the end of the palate. I thought I was aiming too high but was assured not so and we should be able to get brewery standards at home. I am using bottled water, Nottingham/Gervin and obsessively clean. The nearest I have got to sorting is dropping fermentation temp to about 19 degrees and am currently playing with the cooling process. With an immersion cooler there is large temperature variation between top of the liquor and bottom, and ends up with a run off higher than expected in temperature, maybe 25 degrees or more. Im sure this is an issue underestimated but have always been nervous of sticking a thermometer in my sterile wort pre ptiching. I will let you know how I continue to get on in the pursuit of the perfect pint, but I think what you are finding is a common issue.

[beermonsta]

Thank you for your response blackadder - it's good to know it's not just me! (not that other people experiencing this is a nice thing of course!)
I'm compiling a list of things to try next time I brew to see if it makes a difference. Hopefully it will and then I can try isolating each of the things I have done differently until I find the cause of my problem.
You are the first person to say what your best solution was so far (dropping the fermenting temp) so that's deffinately going to be on my list. I also use a IC (look for my post in equipment) and stirr when cooling - the stirring should even out the temp - I use the same digital thermometer throughout the process and its probe was in boiling wort through to after it's cooled - I'm fairly sure that the wort temp is consistent, but I will check the wort in the FV before pitching next time.
Before I brew I will post a list of method changes that I am going to do - and use this post to keep other folk like yourself informed if anything has worked, so (you) they can try too. Seems to me to be a more common problem that a lot of people say - maybe some people haven't quite noticed it - for instance I'm currently quaffing a Dolly (black sheep ale clone) and it's very reasonable - but there is still a subtle hint in the background of an off taste - not one which I think is anything related to infections or oxidation.

Please do keep in touch - I'd be interested in any progress you make, and for anyone else reading thinking "hmm this is familiar" please drop a post here with your thoughts/experiences etc.
Cheers,
Ben

[Trefoyl]

Every time I've heard of medicinal phenols it is suggested that wild yeast may be the culprit. I had 2 batches that I thought were caused by not rinsing the iodophor out of my bottles. But after reading about wild yeast and how it can remain in plastic despite sanitizing I replaced the hoses and racking cane. Or, it might have been infected packets of dried yeast, but I haven't had a problem since. I never rinse the iodophor, simply drip dry on the bottle tree. Yeats is not dried under completely sterile conditions. Palmer suggests that they usually have enough good yeast to crowd out the bad ones but that recycling dried too many times is not a good idea. I love Safale S-04 but usually use a fresh packet every time.
I let the funky beers sit in the basement for a couple of months and found that the phenol flavor almost completely dissipated ... almost. It went from absolutely undrinkable to not bad.
Hope everything works out! Nothing worse than working so hard to find there is a wtf is it flavor in your beer!
Edit: Maybe it was a batch of yeast contaminated with wild yeast. My two funky beers were both brewed with yeast manufactured on the same date bought from the same merchant.
As an aside, my homebrew store owner was aghast that I brewed a brettanomyces bruxellensis beer in the same room as my regular beer. He assumes that with each bubble in the air lock the room was is being being atomized with brett. I am sure they are not that mobile. The brett beer is sublime, and none of my other beers show any sign of it. I was just careful to not reuse the hoses or airlocks.

[Dr. Dextrin]

Just a random thought, but I've just bought a plastic bin to store my bulk malt in. I had to go around sniffing them in the shops to find one that didn't niff of plastic too much (some of them smell really nasty).

Is it possible that ingredients are picking up a phenolic taste due to being stored in plastic containers that impart an odour?

[Trefoyl]

No, I highly doubt it, being dry and I imagine not sitting unused for that long. However I just read somewhere, can't remember where (side effect of too much good beer), that if you want to reduce the plastic smell in a container you can soak it with a mild bleach solution overnight (1/3 cup per 5 US gallons, or 19 liters), rinse it well and let it sit in the sun for awhile.

[Philipek]

Hello Beermonsta,
Here's another 'phenolic taste' thread. Bevanjon and I have had similar problems to you.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27176

I initially thought it was a persistent infection and my crazy sanitation regime got even more crazy. However, the phenolic taste fades with time.

I'm using iodophor and switched to bottled water. Bevanjon did the same and rinsed his chlorine based sanitiser with Campden solution.

My last brew was with Safale 04 and fermented at 18 degrees. When I bottled it, it had no phenol taste whatever. However, loads of break material and hop debris make their way into the fermenter. I read elsewhere that this is not too much of a problem, so wasn't obsessive keeping it out. However, I'll keep an eye on how this latest one turns out and be much stricter with the gunk next brew.

[beermonsta]

Hi Philipek, Trefoyl, Dr.Dextrin thanks for your replys - the more information I can gather - the more things I can try

I posted an update to Darren here regarding my last brew
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27697

both of us have had positive results - I believe its chlorine that is responsible!
Anyway I'm chuffed.

Also found this post so will drop a link to here on it...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27176

Cheers Ben.

[quiff]

Thought I'd post an update and let you know that I seem to have eliminated the phenolic tastes from my brews.
I believe that it is definitely the hard water that I get in my area that is respnsible. I don't think that it is just chlorine.
Pre boiling the liqour to remove carbonate and treating with gypsum to lower the pH has completely solved the problem. With or without treating with sod-met.
Is there anybody who has been having this problem who doesn't live in a hard water area?

[Tony01]

Hi folks
I had exactly the same problem when I began brewing. I tried changing one thing at a time to try and discover what was causing it (as we have all discovered, information on the phenomenon is scarce) and I have stopped it.
I used an electrim boiler (insulated) which I used as a mast tun, grain pre-crushed, fresh (& vacuum-sealed) hops, S-O4 yeast and water treated with a campden tab. Seems that the culprit (for me at least) was the electrim boiler and the fluctuating temp inside. I'm sure everyone has discovered that the thermostat on these leaves a lot to be desired. Once I had moved to a converted cooler which drops a maximum of 1 degree C over 90 mins, the problem disappeared - everything else remains the same as my first brews. I now use the electrim for heating strike water and sparge water only and a baby burco boiler for boils.
Since changing my set up in this way I haven't had a single problem.
Tony

[flamminggimp]

I leave all the water I am going to use in a bucket overnight before a brewday, have been told this allows dissolved Cl to be liberated, haven't had any probs with related tastes

[blackadder]

I posted on this some time ago, same problem. Convinced it is fermentation temp. I struggled to drop from boil to 22 or so and ended up creating nasties in the first 12 hours of fermentation. 22deg or so feels cool to touch not warm, similar room temp a room at 22 feels cold, stick to temp testing wort pre pitching and external temp monitor when fermenting. Im sorted with smooth taste unimpared brews.

[Philipek]

Where are you brewing?
I brewed in my kitchen and on the last brew I went outside to transfer the wort to the carboy, and I will bottle the beer outside too. I asked on here if anyone got infections from their kitchen and was told that a few brewers got bad lacto infections that forced them outside. I'm wondering if I haven't cultured a massive wild yeast colony in the kitchen what with all the spilt beer and cooking and stuff that goes on in there. Then on brew day, it gets pretty warm and humid in the kitchen, so that might get all them wild yeast spores going.

I will report back here when I taste my latest.