DLS or gypsum

[RichardG]

Having made the leap to AG, water treatment, and hence brewing salts, has become something that interests me. Originally I purchased gypsum, but having read about DLS on the Brupaks and Craft Brewing Association websites, decided to go with that. Now, I have often noted that when it comes to brewing salts, many stick with gypsum. The standard for 25Ltrs seems to be 1 camden tablet, CRS as appropriate, and one teaspoon of gypsum in the mash and another in the boil, and doesn't appear to be any more scientific than that. So, what's the deal with gypsum over DLS? Or is they any benfit to one over the other? And why a teaspoon of gypsum rather than a more accurate measurement based on the analysis of your water? Am I getting obsessive about this? Do I need medical help?

[RichardG]

dls is part gypsum, part calcium chloride and part magnesium sulphate, unfortunately it doesn't state in what quantities so you have no idea how much of what you are adding and even less control over the proportions of gyspum and calcium chloride should you wish to try and accentuate malt flavours or hop flavours.

Best bet, fleabay it as a job lot with all the other useless brewing stuff you collect over the years and buy some gypsum and calcium chloride.

...which is all very interesting, and partly what I'd expected. However, whilst I agree that DLS is a blend of salts, you are adding a measured amount based on your water composition, and it doesn't seem any more inaccurate than 'a teaspoon' of gypsum. However, I already have gypsum and can get calcium chloride easily enough, so I will certainly follow your suggestion. Am I right in assuming there's a calculator on JBK to calculate the correct amount of salts?

[Horatio]

I add epsom salts, gypsum and calcium chloride to my water in exacting quantities. I think what Chris is getting at is that because DLS is premixed/blended you have no control over the ratio of the different salts that you may need to add. I worked my ratios out using Grahams water treatment calculator: http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water/water.html it seems a little confusing at first but read through the guidance notes and it all becomes clearer. It is worth taking the time to learn this IMHO; it is the one thing I did that really improved my beers.

[Aleman]

Whilst I agree that DLS is a blend of salts, you are adding a measured amount based on your water composition

How do you know your water composition? . . . A water authority report is often wildly inaccurate . . While you can have a water analysis provided by Murphy's . . it is for one point in time, and cannot be relied on to be the same each and every time you brew. I am in the process of writing a new section on water treatment for the Craft Brewers Association, which will not rely quite so much on the data provided by Murphy's, but will have a more practical based approach.

[RichardG]

Now this is all very interesting. Regarding Aleman's point, I may be guilty of over stating my case. I've ordered a Salifert kit and will be using this to check my alkalinity for each brew; that's the full extent of my check into water composition, so apologies if my posts suggested something more than that. The question, to a certain extent was in what way is using DLS any less/more accurate than the oft quoted 'teaspoon of gypsum', but that's really a fruitless discussion. However, I'm most interested in Graham's water calculator and have had a quick look. If I can ever figure out how it works (I'll bet it's dead simple really!) then I can use this to work out the appropriate amounts of gypsum, calcium chloride and epsom salts as necessary depending on the style I'm brewing and the result I wish to achieve. Sounds splendid! BTW, don't I have to be slightly circumspect when using epsom salts? I recall it having an effect in excess quentities that would suggest staying rather near the loo... or have I got that wrong?

[OldSpeckledBadger]

BTW, don't I have to be slightly circumspect when using epsom salts? I recall it having an effect in excess quentities that would suggest staying rather near the loo... or have I got that wrong?

Epsom Salts are Magnesium Sulphate. The wort only needs a trace of Magnesium and there'll already be sufficient in the water so you don't need to add Epsom Salts. You'd need to add an awful lot anyway to act as a laxative (which beer acts as of its own accord IME ). Get some Calcium Sulphate (Gypsum) for the mash. You might also need to add Calcium to the boil. I use Calcium Chloride for that but Calcium Sulphate would work too.

[steve_flack]

dls is part gypsum, part calcium chloride and part magnesium sulphate, unfortunately it doesn't state in what quantities so you have no idea how much of what you are adding and even less control over the proportions of gyspum and calcium chloride should you wish to try and accentuate malt flavours or hop flavours.

FWIW

REDUCTION / ADDITION PER ml/l or g/l

Code: Select all

				
	                         CRS	        DLS	       TABLE SALT   	GYPSUM
				
Alkalinity (HCO3)	     -182.86			
Hardness (Ca)		                     181.40		                  229.89
Chloride (Cl)	           65.71	     179.07	        604.55	
Sulphate (SO4)	          88.57	     373.26		                  551.72
Magnesium (Mg)		                      5.58		
Sodium (Na)		                        75.58	        392.73	

[RichardG]

Okay, I think I'm starting to get this. So, I use the Salifert kit to obtain a CaCO3 figure for the water I've drawn. Lets say, for the sake of argument, that figure is 175 (which falls within the range given by my water company... but that's another story!), I then go to Graham's water calculator. Starting at the top, I add this figure into the left hand box (Alkalinity) add then click the 'As CaCO3' indicator thingy. Then, move to the Carbonate Reduction Method box and click 'CRS' and input the residual alkalinity figure I want based on the brew style I'm after. Again, for the sake of the exercise, lets say 50 and click the 'As CaCO3' box again. Lots of whizzy figures then appear. Next, I go to the 'Target Liquor' drop-down box and select my brew style (in this case I'll go with Bitter) and I get a warning message. Following instruction from that message I click the 'Balance CO3' box, then scroll down and enter the 'Volumn to be treated figure'. I'm assuming this is the total liqour I'm preparing, which in my case is usually 50Ltrs for a 25Ltr brew lenght (like to have plenty spare, just in case!). That then gives me a total CRS figure of 34ml, gypsum at 15.59g, calcium chloride3.19g, and if I've read the above correctly I don't need to worry to much about the rest. Is this anyway near correct?

[Aleman]

That's pretty much what I do (I treat mash and 'Sparge' Liquor separately, but that is a personal preference)

[Graham]

One reason for using gypsum over DLS if you are also using CRS is that Murphy's are overfond of chloride. CRS adds equal amounts (in terms of millivals) of sulphate and chloride, so roughly a 1:1 sulphate chloride ratio by weight. That is too much in my view to begin with. DLS then adds another lump of chloride in a 2:1 sulphate / chloride ratio. And to top it all, the water composition table given on the Murphy's web site does not balance unless you add another lump of chloride in the form of common salt, a whopping 254mg/l of table salt for their bitter profile for example. Somewhat worrying.

In reality you do not need high precision for initial water treatment, except for alkalinity and only then if you are using acid for carbonate reduction. All the bits and pieces required are minimums to give enough 'stuff' for certain enzymatic / catalyst reactions to occur and the major important one there is calcium. However, consistency is required because you may need to fine tune your water by adjusting calcium or residual alkalinity to get the mash pH where you want it to be, based on experience. It is a bit of a chicken and egg situation, but after a couple of brews you will be able to fine tune your water treatment to perfection.

[RichardG]

Thanks for that Graham, and indeed all for their input; I think I am persuaded! I already have the gypsum so I'll get some calcium chloride before AG#3 takes wing. One final (I hope!) question if I may. I understood that with CRS you should treat the total brewing liquor, but that the salt additions should be calculated based on the brew length. If so, I'll need two calculations from the calculator; firstly to obtain the CRS addition for the total liquor, then adjust the 'Volumn to be treated' figure to the brew length for the salt additions. These are then split between the mash and boil basically 50:50. Is that correct?

[RichardG]

Is this anyway near correct?

No.

Have you read my posts ? ...

Yes, but clearly I didn't understand. Okay, I'll go back and re read.

[RichardG]

Okay, I reckon I've got it now. Basically use the Salifert kit to calculate alkalinity and from this calculate the amount of CRS to add to the liquor. Then add 1 teaspoon of gypsum to the mash, and another to the boil, and I'll produce perfectly acceptable beer (all other things being equal!). If I wish I can substitute some of the gypsum for calcium chloride if I wish to favour malt flavours, but go easy on that to start with. As to clone beers, I'm not too interested in that; I'd rather find my own way, so reproducing another brewer(ies) water isn't something I'm likely to need to do for now. It strikes me that there are so many variables from one system over another (water, mash efficiency, quality of ingredients, yeast.. the list is endless) that I won't reproduce a particular beer I like, so why do it? No reason not to make note of the factors that I like though, and try to emulate those aspects. Maybe I'm being a bit harsh though...

[trucker5774]

Based on Chris's wisdom I have been doing the teaspoon method. I reckon my water is probably middle of the road as profiles go, but my beer has been fine using very little science. You won't go far wrong by making a brew then tweaking it from the results.

[RichardG]

Ooooo I am excited. By Salifert kit arrived yesterday. I'm going to do a trial run this weekend; partly to get used to doing so in a test environment when it doesn't matter so much if a mess it up, but partly to see what my water alkalinity actually is compared to the figure I've been using (though I am of course aware that the figure I get from this test will not necessarily reflect the position when I actually brewed). My water company (South Staffs) give a CaCO3 figure of 167.3, but that will have been a snap-shot, or an average of a number of tests; they don't make that clear which means the figure is really as much use as a chocolate fire grate.