TTL caramel-biscuit note

[Dave S]

Hi guys

I brewed a TTL clone a while back, and though it was a very nice pint, the caramel-biscuit note that you get in the real thing just wasn't there. I've read a few posts on this and boiling portions of the wort down to a syrup sounds like a lot of faff. I can't believe Timothy Taylor do that. I'm sure using the genuine TT yeast would help, but I'm wondering if the addition of some brewers caramel might also help, (TT probably don't do that either).

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

[Dr. Dextrin]

I suspect the yeast is probably one of the main factors. However, I'm also beginning to suspect that a lot of commercial brews have better control over diacetyl than we do as homebrewers, and tend to leave a controlled amount in the beer. This can produce that caramel or butterscotch-like note that's found in a lot of commercial brews (especially from the larger and longer-established brewers) and is so hard to reproduce.

If you read the homebrew literature, especially from America, you'll be told that diacetyl is the spawn of the devil and needs to be banished with a diacetyl rest (basically just leaving the beer on the yeast after fermentation). But I'm no longer believing that stuff and have started experimenting with yeasts like Fullers that produce a lot of dicetyl. My latest (a simple bitter modelled on Wadworth 6X - with just pale and crystal malts) has produced an amazing toffee flavour that I've never managed to achieve before, so I'm starting to think I'm on the right track.

However, temperature control during fermentation appears to be quite important as, also, is the ability to clear the yeast from the beer at the correct point in the fermentation by cooling (essentially this is to prevent the diacety rest taking place). I suspect all this needs to be done in quite a controlled manner for best results. There are enough variables to keep me busy for a while, so I'm definitely just at the start of the learning curve.

But I think this is a promising area to experiment with.

[Dave S]

I suspect the yeast is probably one of the main factors. However, I'm also beginning to suspect that a lot of commercial brews have better control over diacetyl than we do as homebrewers, and tend to leave a controlled amount in the beer. This can produce that caramel or butterscotch-like note that's found in a lot of commercial brews (especially from the larger and longer-established brewers) and is so hard to reproduce.

If you read the homebrew literature, especially from America, you'll be told that diacetyl is the spawn of the devil and needs to be banished with a diacetyl rest (basically just leaving the beer on the yeast after fermentation). But I'm no longer believing that stuff and have started experimenting with yeasts like Fullers that produce a lot of dicetyl. My latest (a simple bitter modelled on Wadworth 6X - with just pale and crystal malts) has produced an amazing toffee flavour that I've never managed to achieve before, so I'm starting to think I'm on the right track.

However, temperature control during fermentation appears to be quite important as, also, is the ability to clear the yeast from the beer at the correct point in the fermentation by cooling (essentially this is to prevent the diacety rest taking place). I suspect all this needs to be done in quite a controlled manner for best results. There are enough variables to keep me busy for a while, so I'm definitely just at the start of the learning curve.

But I think this is a promising area to experiment with.

Hmm, interesting that. Keep us updated. It would be nice to crack that one.

[seymour]

...the caramel-biscuit note that you get in the real thing just wasn't there...

I haven't seen your recipe, obviously, but for the caramel flavor be sure to include a good percentage of medium-lovibond caramel/crystal malt and/or some brown sugar. For the biscuit flavor, consider biscuit malt or believe-it-or-not, some lightly toasted oats (from your kitchen: quick oats, rolled, flaked, Scotch, etc, will work.) A handful of oats in the mash generally improves the mouthfeel and appearance, too.

...boiling portions of the wort down to a syrup sounds like a lot of faff...

Perhaps you're right, but a much simplified way of doing this (which is more common at commercial breweries as well) is a longer boil. That's it. If you boil for, say, 90 minutes instead of the typical 45 or 60, you'll get some nice, rich, "kettle caramelization" which by definition will give your beer a more caramelly taste. This is true even if there was not "caramel malt" in the grainbill. A last caveat: don't add your hops at the beginning of the 90 minute boil unless you want to greatly increase the bitterness. Make sure to do your hop additions at 60 minutes remaining, 15 minutes remaining, and so on, as your recipe dictates.

[Dave S]

...the caramel-biscuit note that you get in the real thing just wasn't there...

I haven't seen your recipe, obviously, but for the caramel flavor be sure to include a good percentage of medium-lovibond caramel/crystal malt and/or some brown sugar. For the biscuit flavor, consider biscuit malt or believe-it-or-not, some lightly toasted oats (from your kitchen: quick oats, rolled, flaked, Scotch, etc, will work.) A handful of oats in the mash generally improves the mouthfeel and appearance, too.

...boiling portions of the wort down to a syrup sounds like a lot of faff...

Perhaps you're right, but a much simplified way of doing this (which is more common at commercial breweries as well) is a longer boil. That's it. If you boil for, say, 90 minutes instead of the typical 45 or 60, you'll get some nice, rich, "kettle caramelization" which by definition will give your beer a more caramelly taste. This is true even if there was not "caramel malt" in the grainbill. A last caveat: don't add your hops at the beginning of the 90 minute boil unless you want to greatly increase the bitterness. Make sure to do your hop additions at 60 minutes remaining, 15 minutes remaining, and so on, as your recipe dictates.

Hi Seymour

Thanks for the ideas. My recipe was GW's which, as you probably know contains no caramel style adjuncts, and like I said, it produced a very nice beer but didn't bear much resemblance to TTL.

As for boiling, I always do a 90 mins anyway. Next time I'll experiment with one or more of the ingredients you suggest.

[Dr. Dextrin]

...the caramel-biscuit note that you get in the real thing just wasn't there...

I haven't seen your recipe, obviously, but for the caramel flavor be sure to include a good percentage of medium-lovibond caramel/crystal malt and/or some brown sugar. For the biscuit flavor, consider biscuit malt or believe-it-or-not, some lightly toasted oats (from your kitchen: quick oats, rolled, flaked, Scotch, etc, will work.) A handful of oats in the mash generally improves the mouthfeel and appearance, too.

...boiling portions of the wort down to a syrup sounds like a lot of faff...

Perhaps you're right, but a much simplified way of doing this (which is more common at commercial breweries as well) is a longer boil. That's it. If you boil for, say, 90 minutes instead of the typical 45 or 60, you'll get some nice, rich, "kettle caramelization" which by definition will give your beer a more caramelly taste. This is true even if there was not "caramel malt" in the grainbill. A last caveat: don't add your hops at the beginning of the 90 minute boil unless you want to greatly increase the bitterness. Make sure to do your hop additions at 60 minutes remaining, 15 minutes remaining, and so on, as your recipe dictates.

All good suggestions, although I found kettle caramelisation to be somewhat underwhelming when I tried it.

But the puzzle, I think, is that we suspect Timothy Taylor, and other brewers, get that flavour without doing any of this stuff. That's why clones for TTL typically only use pale malt (and perhaps something for colour).

[Dave S]

All good suggestions, although I found kettle caramelisation to be somewhat underwhelming when I tried it.

But the puzzle, I think, is that we suspect Timothy Taylor, and other brewers, get that flavour without doing any of this stuff. That's why clones for TTL typically only use pale malt (and perhaps something for colour).

I wish they'd be good sports and just tell us the secret

[dave.wilton]

I completely agree with dr dextrin here. I have independently come to the same conclusion about diacetyl. I've been doing the same with fullers London pride. There are very good detail out there for this beer, including the exact recipe. But if you follow the recipe and pitch a normal amount you just don't get the same caramel/toffee flavours. Following fullers fermentation profile which is very up and down (17, natural rise to 20, 17 at half gravity and then chill to 10 at 1/5th gravity) and a slightly lower pitching rate you end up with far more diacetyl and therefore the caramel notes. In doing this I have over done it, I need to get less in the finished beer but it is much closer. Without this the beer tastes too hoppy and doesn't seem as full in body.

[seymour]

For what it's worth, I'm one American who loves a little butterscotch. I think taste trends are moving away from ultra-clean/neutral palate and the strict guidelines are behind-the-times. For instance, in the US anyway, Sour is the new IPA.

[Dr. Dextrin]

I completely agree with dr dextrin here. I have independently come to the same conclusion about diacetyl. I've been doing the same with fullers London pride. There are very good detail out there for this beer, including the exact recipe. But if you follow the recipe and pitch a normal amount you just don't get the same caramel/toffee flavours. Following fullers fermentation profile which is very up and down (17, natural rise to 20, 17 at half gravity and then chill to 10 at 1/5th gravity) and a slightly lower pitching rate you end up with far more diacetyl and therefore the caramel notes. In doing this I have over done it, I need to get less in the finished beer but it is much closer. Without this the beer tastes too hoppy and doesn't seem as full in body.

That's pretty much my experience - I've over-done it with my initial attempts. Plus the Fullers (Bengal Lancer) yeast imparts other flavours that don't quite suit the beer I'm making. Maybe I'd be better off using a London Pride recipe.

It's interesting to know about the temperature profile. My thoughts (guesses, really) were that Fullers yeast drops out too rapidly and therefore leaves too much diacetyl in the beer. By slowing the end of fermentation, it should stay in suspension longer and partially clean up. Unfortunately, I have no way of cooling my FV at present, so will have to wait for colder weather to try this out.

Alternatively, I may try and find a yeast that's a little more gentle on the diacetyl front. In theory, for a TTL clone, you can get the Timothy Taylor's yeast. But when I tried it before, I got the dry thin beer that seems to be the standard homebrew experience. Maybe if I could understand what the temperature profile is actually doing, it would be possible to design one to get this yeast to leave some diacetyl behind too.

[mark4newman]

Hi

The yeast is whitelabs yorkshire square. I've used it a couple of times, and you do get the TT landlord taste with it.

[Dave S]

Hi

The yeast is whitelabs yorkshire square. I've used it a couple of times, and you do get the TT landlord taste with it.

I was under the impression, as many others seem to be that it is Wyeast 1469 West Yorkshire, (or are they the same?). Can anyone clarify?

[seymour]

Dave S is correct. Wyeast 1469 "West Yorkshire Ale" is the true Timothy Taylor strain. White Labs WLP037 "Yorkshire Square" is actually the Black Sheep strain, perhaps originally derived from Theakstons. Despite sharing the word "Yorkshire" in their brand names, they are technically different strains. Very similar English ale characteristics, though, so mark4newman I don't doubt for a second you achieved the desired taste profile.

[Dave S]

I've decided to do another TTL, but this time using Golden Promise and Wyeast 1469 in keeping with the original. For now I'm going to stick with GW's recipe, just to see how much influence the yeast has on the final taste, (considerable I bet). Won't have the time for another few weeks though, but got the ingredients ordered.

[Invalid Stout]

I've decided to do another TTL, but this time using Golden Promise and Wyeast 1469 in keeping with the original. For now I'm going to stick with GW's recipe, just to see how much influence the yeast has on the final taste, (considerable I bet). Won't have the time for another few weeks though, but got the ingredients ordered.

Yeast (and water) are fantastically important in these types of beers. For me, that’s the main failing of Graham’s book — no information on yeast. Without that most bitter recipes are really fairly similar.