Question about grain percentages

[Buckie Brewer]

Having done my first two AG brew now and both were AG recipe packs I would like to make my own recipe, I am using beer smith and it seems straight forward enough but the question is, are the maximum percentages for a type of malt used in the mash stackable or is it accumulative?

For example Marris Otter is a pale malt which can be used for 100% of the grist but something like Cara-red is stated as a maximum of 10% of the mash as is Special B. Percentages from here

So when I am formulating a recipe using these (numbers rounded for easiness) is it?

8kg Marris Otter = 80%
1kg Cara-red = 10%
1kg Special B = 10%

Where the two speciality malts are both in their stated percentage range but together they are over the 10% of the mash.

Or is it?

9kg Marris Otter = 90%
0.5kg Cara-red = 5%
0.5kg Special B = 5%

Here the speciality malts are only 10% of the grist total.

Also why are there the maximum usage figures?

[simon12]

I am not certain I am correct on this but I think the maximums are due to the malts don't have the enzymes to convert the starch to sugars so they rely on the enzymes from the base malts to convert them. Different guides have different maximums for different malts so they are a guide only and a longer mash may allow more. But as far as I know if you use 2 malts maximum 10% then it should be total not each. If some can expand on this I would like to know if I have got this correct or if theres more to it.

[Buckie Brewer]

You're right, did a bit of research myself and was about to post this.

Basically my understanding it is to do with the "diastatic power" of the malt/mash where the speciality malt have a low or zero lintner value, very simply a mash/malt need a lintner value of over 30°L to work so if you follow the equation mentioned on the beersmith page and it is greater than 30°L your mash will be good.

If we take the MO as 120 °L and the other two as 0 °L then using
Lintner_for_batch = Σ(lintner_for_grain * weight_of_grain) / (total_batch_grain_weight)

8kg Marris Otter = 80%
1kg Cara-red = 10%
1kg Special B = 10%

it would be 120 x 8 / 10 = 96°L

and

9kg Marris Otter = 90%
0.5kg Cara-red = 5%
0.5kg Special B = 5%

it would be 120 x 9 / 10 = 108°L

Then both mashes I listed would be fine, or have I got it completely wrong?

[Jocky]

Modern well modified barley has enough diastatic power to convert at least twice it's weight of grain.

Really I think that the % amounts listed on that page are a general guideline as to the amounts of speciality grain you really want in a beer to avoid making something unbalanced. Special B is a strong tasting malt, so you want to be careful in using it.

There are always exceptions to these rules too (e.g. I have a recipe that uses over 30% Amber malt), but you want to get to know your malts or have a proven recipe to work from before you start going too far.

My main suggestion would be that if you liked your recipe packs that you've done previously, do a similar recipe and just vary one thing. That way you know what you did, and what the end result was. Or otherwise make your first recipe one that is very simple (e.g. a best bitter that is mostly pale malt with a little crystal, or a pale ale made with 95% pale malt and 5% torrified wheat) that you can then experiment around with future brews.

[simon12]

This thread prompted me to look through the Brupaks guide to grain I was given at a 1 day brew course I did a year ago and there a a few weird things like black malt says max 10% while everything else darker than dark crystal (20%) and special B (10%) is max 5% ie chocolate & all the carafas. Also it says you can use twice as much cara amber (20%) as cara red (10%). It must all be approximate and rounded off, besides rules are there to be broken experiment as you want.

[orlando]

there a a few weird things like black malt says max 10%

Try more than 10% and it won't seem weird, this is just about as harsh as you can get, produces an acrid bitterness akin to an old ashtray. At the right amount it can produce those roast coffee aromas and flavours, think of it like a condiment, just the right amount and it gives the "meal" a certain something, too much and it ruins it.

[Waylander264]

Jocky's suggestion seems very sensible. I've only brewed three all grain batches myself but they've all been a variation of the same recipe, just altering water to grain ratio, temps and spare technique. I have been able to try any yet though as they've all been in the last three weeks. Roll on tasting day

[simon12]

there a a few weird things like black malt says max 10%

Try more than 10% and it won't seem weird, this is just about as harsh as you can get, produces an acrid bitterness akin to an old ashtray. At the right amount it can produce those roast coffee aromas and flavours, think of it like a condiment, just the right amount and it gives the "meal" a certain something, too much and it ruins it.

I was more questioning why thats double what you can use chocolate surely the max for both is close to the same when it comes to overdoing it and if anything should be the other way round.

[orlando]

there a a few weird things like black malt says max 10%

Try more than 10% and it won't seem weird, this is just about as harsh as you can get, produces an acrid bitterness akin to an old ashtray. At the right amount it can produce those roast coffee aromas and flavours, think of it like a condiment, just the right amount and it gives the "meal" a certain something, too much and it ruins it.

I was more questioning why thats double what you can use chocolate surely the max for both is close to the same when it comes to overdoing it and if anything should be the other way round.

I find both are easy to overdo, particularly chocolate as the name is too suggestive of something nice. Black malt is typically twice the EBC of chocolate so that's why they are treated differently.

[Buckie Brewer]

My main suggestion would be that if you liked your recipe packs that you've done previously, do a similar recipe and just vary one thing. That way you know what you did, and what the end result was. Or otherwise make your first recipe one that is very simple (e.g. a best bitter that is mostly pale malt with a little crystal, or a pale ale made with 95% pale malt and 5% torrified wheat) that you can then experiment around with future brews.

That is a good idea,
Of the two kits I have done the first (TT Landlord) has the ingredients listed but the second has none so I will work from that. I have also started looking through the recipes/brewdays on here and looking at what other people are doing and also what I want to achieve.

Really I think that the % amounts listed on that page are a general guideline as to the amounts of speciality grain you really want in a beer to avoid making something unbalanced. Special B is a strong tasting malt, so you want to be careful in using it.

I think the issue is my thinking. when you do kits it is roughly tied to a kit and you tweak it, but it is still roughly set by the volumes and I tend to go by 1 can, 2 can etc. My thinking while formulating my all grain recipes has been the same, its sold in 500g bags so I'll add 500g, hence what works on beersmith as in EBC, IBU, OG etc for the style doesn't mean it will be decent beer. Another issue is volume if I'm going to have 19l of a beer I want it to be great so I have the tendency to be trying to make all singing all dancing, 7 grain, 25 hop white whale beer when a simple mash and hop schedule can be great. Running before crawling springs to mind