Flat beer

[Zammo]

So I went out yesterday in my old home town, where recently two craft beer establishments have opened and tried a few of their wares. The first bar seemed to have a problem with their beer and all the brews we tried there were very flat, even one that had literally become ready to serve while we were there.

A friend of mine commented that it was because the beer was from the barrel and they weren't injecting CO2 into them so they were going flat. However I'm not so sure as I tried a Pale Ale that came from a fresh barrel and that was also flat.

My question is what prevention can I put in place to stop my beer doing this (I am about to start All Grain Brewing). I was under the impression that to carbonate the beer I need to add the relevant amount of brewing sugar, which is listed in the recipe I decide to follow. Do I then need to inject the barrel with CO2 when I start drinking from the barrel and if so how much do I inject and also how often?

Thanks

[Kev888]

If you prime the beer at barreling time, then the yeast will produce more CO2 after the pressure barrel is sealed; this will create some pressure and so carbonate the beer. However when starting to consume the beer, the pressure will gradually drop. Depending on the amount of initial carbonation, you may find it going flatter than you wish before the end. In that case use of a CO2 system can maintain the pressure and so prevent loss of carbonation. In some cases the pressure may drop so low that air gets drawn into the barrel as you dispense, which oxidises the remaining beer more quickly; injecting CO2 can also prevent this happening.

The amount and frequency of injections needed depend on initial carbonation levels and how you like it, it is also quite dependent on temperature since cooler beer will absorb and retain more CO2. But normally it won't be needed until some way through the barrel as the carbonation from priming will sustain it for a while. S30, widget-world and soda-stream cylinders work for many people (there are little one-shot bulbs too, though quite costly for the gas). Some people attach pressure gauges to help take some of the guesswork out of it. More advanced setups use a bigger CO2 cylinder and a regulator, such that if teamed with a stable temperature, any desired pressure can be maintained consistently (and with the right equipment one can use CO2 to carbonate initially too, instead of priming - this is called force carbonating).

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WRT the commercial casks you mention: traditionally, casks don't have CO2 injected (CO2 is more normal with Kegs). Casks require skill to manage after opening, need to be consumed within a reasonably short time, and are often dispensed through a beer engine (hand pull) which can liven up the beer as it is drawn through - especially if it has a sparkler on the nozzle. Sometimes (especially in low-turnover situations) very low pressure CO2 is applied to prevent oxygen being drawn in as the cask is emptied, and so increase shelf life once started, but it isn't high enough pressure to maintain carbonation of the beer.

This is largely because many commercial users of casks want to be seen as selling CAMRA's definition of 'Real Ale', which precludes injecting CO2 (even the low pressure cask breather is argued over). CAMRA's aim was to improve quality of commercially sold beer, though it is also much caught up with preserving traditional methods too. IMO this isn't appropriate to best beer quality in many home-brew situations (or arguably, even many commercial ones of lower turnover) - if one wishes to use the traditional cask approach at home thats wonderful, but we shouldn't feel its necessary in order for our beer to be 'real'.

[scuppeteer]

Kev has given all the valid reasons. But what I would like to know is, are these new establishments selling their own beer or other breweries? If it is the latter then it is definitely down to their cellarmanship or rather lack of, especially if all the beers were flat.
A beer straight form the cask should be the best you'll ever get, if they get through them in 3 or 4 days then there should never be a issue with quality. Although I have noticed that some new brewers don't yet have the knowledge to produce such a beer and pulling it through a beer engine will enhance the product if it is not quite up to par. I have a new brewery locally and my local pub serves straight from the cask. These beers were not as well presented here whilst up the road when served through an engine they were better. A hand pump can hide issues with carbonation and head retention especially if a sparkler is used.

[Fil]

I agree with the above, ive also sampled a few less than par 'real micro brews' served as if being a craft product it should be allowed to look n taste like slops, as if it validated it as an authentic product.

however ive also supped nectar when drawn directly from a tap hammered into the cask.

Before breakspears became a brand and was an actual brewery based in Henley its beers were famous for not travelling more than 20 miles or so, There was a pub just within the delivery range within a wee drive from us which was a regular summer afternoon visit where the beer was drawn from casks behind the bar under damp towels to keep em cool, served over a formica bar populated with pickled eggs and a few ham and beef baps to supplement the crisps n nut snacks available.. and the beer was glorious, worth being designated driver for the promise of Not being the designated driver Next time

Last time i was there it had been converted into a gastro pub, the beer was so below par and the cost of the food was insane!! not been back since..

Thing is the traffic in that boozer was never heavy and they maintained a touchy temperamental cask served ale at its best with little more than damp towels and thick 15th century walls

[Zammo]

It was their own beer. The beers were in casks lined against one wall, they had taps in them, insulation jackets and then some sort of plastic disc attachment protruding out the top of them (not sure what they were).

Pretty much identical to this setup, minus any sort of tubing (which presumably injects CO2?) going into them:

http://derekimagehandler.pronetis.com/a ... D&keyid=30

[scuppeteer]

Can't really tell from the photo but they look like a cooling spear which goes into the cask. So again, you can tell your friend no CO2 involved.

Any cask system that uses CO2 is purely for extended preservation of the beer for maybe an extra day or so. When beer is drawn off it releases a small amount of CO2 into the cask to act as a blanket. It will not be absorbed into the beer to give any noticeable difference in carbonation.

Their own beer. They won't last long if they can't produce something decent for the punters. Lack of experience then. Should you be inclined to visit again you might want to give them some pointers!.

[Kev888]

Sounds like a strong possibility; I've tasted some truly awful cask beer over the years so it can certainly happen. Unfortunately, in and of itself the term 'craft' means little about the beer or how its managed so thats no particular guide (in fact sometimes it almost seems to be used as an excuse for poor or inconsistent quality).

Though there can be an element of perception and preference involved too. For example if one preferred bottled or kegged beer, or (e.g. european) styles which are supposed to be more highly carbonated, then even good traditional cask ale may seem under-carbonated by comparison.

[jaroporter]

Though there can be an element of perception and preference involved too. For example if one preferred bottled or kegged beer, or (e.g. european) styles which are supposed to be more highly carbonated, then even good traditional cask ale may seem under-carbonated by comparison.

mm for sure, sometimes i think i'm the only one who feels that a handpump (especially sparkler) knocks the life out of a beer compared to a nice sparkly gravity pour..

[Fil]

Though there can be an element of perception and preference involved too. For example if one preferred bottled or kegged beer, or (e.g. european) styles which are supposed to be more highly carbonated, then even good traditional cask ale may seem under-carbonated by comparison.

mm for sure, sometimes i think i'm the only one who feels that a handpump (especially sparkler) knocks the life out of a beer compared to a nice sparkly gravity pour..

SHHHH!!! for goodness sake or some bright spark will bring up the northern delight in paying for an inch of foam wasting beer space in the glass

[Jim]

Though there can be an element of perception and preference involved too. For example if one preferred bottled or kegged beer, or (e.g. european) styles which are supposed to be more highly carbonated, then even good traditional cask ale may seem under-carbonated by comparison.

mm for sure, sometimes i think i'm the only one who feels that a handpump (especially sparkler) knocks the life out of a beer compared to a nice sparkly gravity pour..

Opinion is divided on the subject.

[Meatymc]

Careful Fil - we might like a bit of 'life' on the top of our full pint of liquid up here 'int North but you won't find any buggers paying for it!

[Fil]

Careful Fil - we might like a bit of 'life' on the top of our full pint of liquid up here 'int North but you won't find any buggers paying for it!

Think i may be harbouring some old resentments hehe..

After shifting up to the North East as a bright eyed bushy tailed teen i wasted hours waiting for my glass to get topped up as was the norm back home. If it was a lively cask any beer with a head was left on the bar to settle before getting topped up to the rim, and of course the game was to pull a sneaky sup without the bar-person noticing, as such 'cheek' is an automatic disqualification from getting the top up..

eventually i did question why the short pint? and the concept of the slightly larger glass and a below rim pint mark was introduced to me for the first time After which i only insisted the beer line sat above and not below the faint white line.. If only i had known what a sparkler was I could have nicked em all and gotten a proper pint