Mash duration and efficiency

[Sadfield]

Hi Phil,

I hadn't, but will look into it, although would probably like to keep things in the realms of mash and fermentation, purely because I know that is how brewdog do it and am curious as to whether I can make a better fist of it.

Edit: A quick google suggests pitching yeast at zero degrees is also a method employed by Maltzbier brewers, will research further. Might be a bit extreme, but pitching around 15c might be worth looking at.

2nd Edit: Yep, yeast pitched at 0c for minimal fermentation, then pasteurised. Presumably to kill yeast so that it does ferment and make bottle bombs, and also stop spoilage as there is little alcohol and possibly acidity to prevent bacterial growth.

Thanks, Steve.

[Eric]

2nd Edit: Yep, yeast pitched at 0c for minimal fermentation, then pasteurised. Presumably to kill yeast so that it does ferment and make bottle bombs, and also stop spoilage as there is little alcohol and possibly acidity to prevent bacterial growth.

Thanks, Steve.

Now you will be looking at the other end of the spectrum. A colder, longer, thinner mash to avoid lots of mouth soothing complex sugars. There is another complication, pH of the finished beer which has a significant influence on perception of the drinker. Finshed beer is normally around pH 4.0. This is achieved by yeast activity, dropping pH from 5 after the boil.

Yeast is happy at pH 4 while most bacteria aren't. You mentioned lactic acid additions, I think you did, and while I can't recall having done it for this particular purpose, that may be something to consider, although pateurisation could also kill the bacteria.

Just re-read to see I'd said Yeast is happy at pH 5 while most becteria aren't when I'd meant to say pH 4.

[PhilB]

Hi Steve

Presumably to kill yeast so that it does ferment and make bottle bombs, and also stop spoilage as there is little alcohol and possibly acidity to prevent bacterial growth.

... yes, I believe that's the purpose ... commercial Malzbier producers would then force carbonate and bottle ... but small scale producers, like us, can bottle the beer after halting fermentation, then allow fermentation to restart (to carbonate) and then pasteurise in the bottle (to do all those things you identified, in a way that may have a chance of preserving any hop flavours/aromas you got into your beer ) ... I can understand if you're looking to achieve this in a more "natural" way, I just thought I'd mention the technique in case you struggle to get as low as you are hoping to

I should point out, though, I've only done this myself with cider ... following the method described over on that thread on HBT (link) ... I'm yet to have tried it with beer

Cheers, PhilB

[Sadfield]

Yeah the Malz bier is an interesting technique, but I don't think i'll be adopting it. It does make me wonder what function the yeast plays in this style with little alcohol production, how much influence does it have on flavour?

[Eric]

Yeah the Malz bier is an interesting technique, but I don't think i'll be adopting it. It does make me wonder what function the yeast plays in this style with little alcohol production, how much influence does it have on flavour?

Probably bitterness. Expired yeast is very bitter, not of the best sort either and can't think of what else it has chance to do. As a style it doesn't seem to warrant using ingredients worthy of making something else, but an experiment with the right malt extract could be worth the effort.

Try some Potters malt extract from Holland and Barrett as it won't ferment much, maybe 30% attenuation maximum. I don't know why, found out recently using it for yeast starters. Maybe they get the mash temperature wrong.

Serious, little effort will be necessary and you'll likely make one as good as any other version.

[oldgreywolf]

I would recommend listening to the following podcast on Beersmith.com.
http://beersmith.com/blog/2011/04/20/ma ... odcast-14/

It features Dr Charlie Bamforth talking about the mash in a detailed but understandable manner. In fact I would recommend any of the episodes featuring Charlie which are on Beersmith.

[donchiquon]

Now you will be looking at the other end of the spectrum. A colder, longer, thinner mash to avoid lots of mouth soothing complex sugars....

I've been trying to brew a session ale with plenty of body and so have been mashing high (71 deg) and using a thin mash to try and achieve this.

This was based on a few articles I found which advocated a thin mash to achive body such as this one:

https://byo.com/hops/item/1086-make-those-enzymes-dance

Have I got things back-to-front? (It won't be the first time!)....Should I be using a thicker mash and higher temps to achieve body?

[Sadfield]

My technique for low Abv (usually 2.5%) is to do a short, thick mash at a 2:1 ratio, at around 70c. This ensures good enzyme stability, but limits the time available for enzymes to cut long chains into simple sugars. After 30 minutes I do an iodine test to check conversion. If converted, I vorlauf and drain, then do a single 10 minute batch sparge with my remaining liquor at 70c. This thin mix in theory should denature the beta amylase, as per your article, and prevent the complex sugars from the first mash being broken down further. This works for me.

I also use a grist containing around 10% dextrin malt, usually Caramalt, and generous amount of Munich malt for flavour.

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[Eric]

Now you will be looking at the other end of the spectrum. A colder, longer, thinner mash to avoid lots of mouth soothing complex sugars....

I've been trying to brew a session ale with plenty of body and so have been mashing high (71 deg) and using a thin mash to try and achieve this.

This was based on a few articles I found which advocated a thin mash to achive body such as this one:

https://byo.com/hops/item/1086-make-those-enzymes-dance

Have I got things back-to-front? (It won't be the first time!)....Should I be using a thicker mash and higher temps to achieve body?

No, you have not, the answer was in the context of fermenting at low temperature for a short period followed by pasteurisation.

If you want body in your beer you might be better served by avoiding advice from where it is thought yeasts should be neutral and hops dominant. Yes, increase mash temperature and mash at 2.5l/kg if you can. Don't restrict the chloride content of your liquor and use a decent British ale yeast, not one that strips the heart and soul out of the wort, nor leave it to ferment for weeks.

As said, there are lots of wonderful malts to peruse in a glass of amber nectar.

[Sadfield]

Don't restrict the chloride content of your liquor and use a decent British ale yeast, not one that strips the heart and soul out of the wort, nor leave it to ferment for weeks.

Excellent points.

If, however, you do like your beer hop forward, there are some British yeasts that maintain hop character very well such as the ambiguously named WY1318 London Ale III (alleged to be Boddingtons yeast) or my favourite WLP028 Edinburgh Ale.

One issue with going hoppy is keeping the bitterness in balance with the lean malt bill, as even late hopping techniques can still rack up the IBUs. Avoid high alpha hops if possible, the lower the AA% the more hops you can add for flavour and aroma. Thinking outside of the box can yield interesting results, for example hops have particlar flavour descriptors, but can you add or boost those flavours another way? Think zests, spices and even spruce for those pine notes. I do a pale ale with Amarillo, and boost the citrus flavours with bergamot in the form of Earl Grey Tea.

Whether from grain, yeast, hops or other additions, the key is too get a good body and add layers of flavour.


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[donchiquon]

Thanks Eric & Sadfield - advice much appreciated!

Eric - Thanks for the clarification. I'll keep trying with the thin hot mashing as the last one I did ended up at 1014 (71 deg @ 3.4L/kg) compared to another attempted which still fermented out to 1010 (70 deg @ 2.6L/kg). Both of these used WLP002 as you suggest - I've stayed away from the more attenuative neutral strains. I also used Graham's sweet pale ale profile (200 sulphate, 150 chloride) - would you recommend an even heavier chloride profile?

Sadfield - So far I've stuck to WLP002, but 028 sounds interesting. My last attempt also ended up a bit too raw and hoppy for my liking (all of the IBU's were late additions) and I hadn't thought of adding flavour from other sources. Are any of your low abv recipes online? I'd be interested to compare ingredients.

EDIT: I hope this is still on topic enough for the thread (I'm not very well versed in forum etiquette!) - if not let me know - happy to pick up elsewhere.

[Eric]

Thanks Eric & Sadfield - advice much appreciated!

Eric - Thanks for the clarification. I'll keep trying with the thin hot mashing as the last one I did ended up at 1014 (71 deg @ 3.4L/kg) compared to another attempted which still fermented out to 1010 (70 deg @ 2.6L/kg). Both of these used WLP002 as you suggest - I've stayed away from the more attenuative neutral strains. I also used Graham's sweet pale ale profile (200 sulphate, 150 chloride) - would you recommend an even heavier chloride profile?

Sadfield - So far I've stuck to WLP002, but 028 sounds interesting. My last attempt also ended up a bit too raw and hoppy for my liking (all of the IBU's were late additions) and I hadn't thought of adding flavour from other sources. Are any of your low abv recipes online? I'd be interested to compare ingredients.

EDIT: I hope this is still on topic enough for the thread (I'm not very well versed in forum etiquette!) - if not let me know - happy to pick up elsewhere.

That profile would seems fine for the moment, containing near 150ppm calcium to balance will help with your objective. My concerns were a low ion profile with less than 100ppm chloride that I too frequently read. Only rarely will I brew with that low choride with an objective of producing a thinner beer. No doubt you'll try a chloride forward profile in a pale beer at some time soon.

[Sadfield]

I haven't any recipes on line at the moment, however, if you use Beersmith I could add them to the cloud later in the week.

Out of interest, what style of beer, target Abv are you aiming for?

Of my recipes so far I've brewed a number of iterations of my 2.5% Earl Grey English pale ale, some using different Tea at the request of friends. The other have been more varied in style (like most of my brewing), with approach of taking a style that usually is 4.5-6% and brewing it at 3% purely for the challenge. So a Bavarian Lager, a New England IPA and a Gose style beer (part of another experiment). I couple of points tested from those is that the New England IPA technique of hopping during active fermentation worked well to add flavour and aroma without being astringent or too bitter, even when I used high AA hops. As Eric points out, the chloride rich water treatment of this style makes for a nice low Abv beer. The Lager I added lactose in the boil to raise the FG by 2 points, this worked in a fairly neutral way, and could be used to adjust a thin beer post fermentation.

Obviously, reducing the difference between SG and FG is the key to low Abv, but I don't see an FG of 1.010 as a bad thing as it sits in the right range for most beers of standard abv. The flavour you put in getting there is what counts.

As mental exercise to brewing a low Abv beer, take a standard recipe you like and without changing the hopping and ABV, adjust the mash temp and balance of speciality grains, until you have something that would be too malty and cloying. Then reduce all malts equally to a lower the SG and Abv.

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[donchiquon]

No doubt you'll try a chloride forward profile in a pale beer at some time soon.

I've added it to the list of tweak for Version 4!

[donchiquon]

I haven't any recipes on line at the moment, however, if you use Beersmith I could add them to the cloud later in the week.

Out of interest, what style of beer, target Abv are you aiming for?

Your Earl Grey English pale ale sounds good. It's taken me these few brews to realise that I needs to up the % of specialty grains and I think I prefer the effect of Vienna and Munich vs crystal malts.

I often brew English and US-style IPAs, but I like a few pints at a time and even my English versions were over 6%. This was all well and good on a weekend, but I'd perfer something lighter for hot summer days or times when I need to have my wits about me afterwards!!

Beers like Landlord and Wherry have always impressed me - they definitely taste 1-2% stronger than they are, and have a complex flavour which still keeps your interest after a few pints. I'm currently on my 6th version of Landlord and there is still something missing!

So I wanted to try and create a beer that gave the impression of a big 6+% English IPA, full of body and flavour, but which was effectively a palate trick and was only half the strength.