1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

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1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by Meatymc » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:51 pm

IMG_20170730_143400(1).jpg
Don't know why but only did 500ml starter with the yeast taken from 2 500ml bottles of st Austell Proper Job - the bottled version nowhere near as good as the hand pull version I had down in Devon a couple of months ago.

Is this going be be enough for a 21L brew?

If not, can a make an extra amount of starter and add to the flask?

And do I wait until all the activity has died down before pitching or pitch as in the picture?

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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by IPA » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:01 pm

I always use 1.2 litre starters for a 50 litre brew. A lot of people will say that this is not enough but believe me it works. So what you have there looks like enough for 23 litres. I always used to use the yeast that had settled on the bottom of the flask and discard the rest. Now I use it all at about the stage yours is now and find it works much better.
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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by orlando » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:37 am

Theory suggests steps are x 10. Pitch the bottle yeast into 200ml then into 2 litre then into your 21l . Choice then is whether to pitch all the 2l starter at high krausen or ferment out chill and decant the spent wort, raise temp to pitching temp and use that. The dilemma is, does the DME change the flavour of your beer, being 10% of it, probably? Or, do you get more lag time and a poorer result from the decanted wort yeast? Pays your money.....! :)
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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by vacant » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:35 am

I've used Proper Job yeast a number of times with your size of starter and activity has been impressive. So try it and see. If you like the beer, repeat at will.

As for the 10x theory/high krausen/decanting, Brew Lab is highly respected in the UK; their instructions for using their slants has remained unchanged for years which is basically to dump the yeast in just 300ml of wort. No stepping up. But I use 10x steps to about 800ml, even if it's a Brew Lab slant #-o. Maybe I should be brave, take my own advice - try it and see.

https://www.brewlab.co.uk/services/home-brew-yeast
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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by Meatymc » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:15 am

Cheers guys.

As is often the case, some slight differences in opinion but again all good advice/information.

Glad to see Vacant has already done the Proper Job as there didn't seem much in the bottles - certainly less than others I'm going to attempt at some stage.

It has settled down overnight and, as I've already got the wort in a sterilised container, think I'll go all in as we are tonight - I'll post how it goes.

Thanks again

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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by orlando » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:38 am

vacant wrote:I've used Proper Job yeast a number of times with your size of starter and activity has been impressive. So try it and see. If you like the beer, repeat at will.

As for the 10x theory/high krausen/decanting, Brew Lab is highly respected in the UK; their instructions for using their slants has remained unchanged for years which is basically to dump the yeast in just 300ml of wort. No stepping up. But I use 10x steps to about 800ml, even if it's a Brew Lab slant #-o. Maybe I should be brave, take my own advice - try it and see.

https://www.brewlab.co.uk/services/home-brew-yeast
Their slants are going to be highly viable whereas the bottled yeast could be much more compromised. The quicker the yeast has an overwhelming advantage compared to whatever else might be there is the key.
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Fermenting: Hazey Shade Of Winter
Conditioning: St. Petersburg (RIS)
Drinking: Kernel Bogey (India Porter), Mild Boys, Chocolate Girl
Up Next: Black Dog, London Calling, Gertcherbrewed, Autumn Almanac
Planning: Autumn drinking beer.

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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by MTW » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:28 pm

I've used PJ recovered yeast and had some good info on temp profiles at the brewery. Basically, keep it on the very cool end while the yeast is growing. It's great stuff but can get estery easily.
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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by Meatymc » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:04 pm

Following reading up, but not PJ spectific, have 'created this at 20C. Would normally ferment at 18C - is either/both too high MTW??

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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by vacant » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:21 pm

MTW wrote:I've used PJ recovered yeast and had some good info on temp profiles at the brewery. Basically, keep it on the very cool end while the yeast is growing. It's great stuff but can get estery easily.
I'm due to brew soon. I was going to start some 1469 from a slant but all this talk of PJ makes me want to use that. I just need a sunny afternoon to down a couple of bottles. \:D/

@MeatyMC. I don't think the starter temp needs to be particularly low but ISTR they do ferment lower than 18C which is probably relevant if you are trying to get an accurate clone. 14C comes to mind, can that be right? I've not done that.
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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by Meatymc » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:27 pm

Cheers Vacant. Given I think I should have made a larger batch of starter - and unless MTW advises otherwise before pitching tonight, I might just pitch a bit lower than normal - say 16C - and see how it goes.

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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by orlando » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:50 pm

Meatymc wrote:Cheers Vacant. Given I think I should have made a larger batch of starter - and unless MTW advises otherwise before pitching tonight, I might just pitch a bit lower than normal - say 16C - and see how it goes.
I wouldn't, you want a rapid start so the yeast get ahead of anything else. You can always dial back after 24 hours.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Hazey Shade Of Winter
Conditioning: St. Petersburg (RIS)
Drinking: Kernel Bogey (India Porter), Mild Boys, Chocolate Girl
Up Next: Black Dog, London Calling, Gertcherbrewed, Autumn Almanac
Planning: Autumn drinking beer.

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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by Meatymc » Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:41 pm

Fair comment Orlando. I've PM'd MTW for any more info he has on this - just in case he's not following the thread today, as I need to pitch tonight, or rather 1st thing in the morning. I'll update if I hear direct (assuming that's OK with MTW?) although have asked him to post in any case

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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by orlando » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:29 pm

Meatymc wrote:Fair comment Orlando. I've PM'd MTW for any more info he has on this - just in case he's not following the thread today, as I need to pitch tonight, or rather 1st thing in the morning. I'll update if I hear direct (assuming that's OK with MTW?) although have asked him to post in any case
Pitch as soon as you have the wort at pitching temp, every moment of delay gives the "opposition" a chance.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Hazey Shade Of Winter
Conditioning: St. Petersburg (RIS)
Drinking: Kernel Bogey (India Porter), Mild Boys, Chocolate Girl
Up Next: Black Dog, London Calling, Gertcherbrewed, Autumn Almanac
Planning: Autumn drinking beer.

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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by Meatymc » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:33 pm

I know - basically a cock-up on timings. I do tend to transfer to a container and cool in there over-night but arrival of 1st grandchild rather blew that out of the water!

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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by MTW » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:06 pm

Meatymc wrote:Cheers Vacant. Given I think I should have made a larger batch of starter - and unless MTW advises otherwise before pitching tonight, I might just pitch a bit lower than normal - say 16C - and see how it goes.
Yes, Vacant is right to recall 14C!

I did a big thread on another forum following a tour there in 2015 and someone PMd me who knew the regimen fairly well. Frustratingly, my antivirus/firewall throws up all sorts of hell when I try to go to that other (UK) forum to check my old messages; I haven't logged into it for ages. However, I recall a 24-hr 14C hold was indeed the case, before rising up to normal ale temps, with a pitch rate that I (think I) had worked out at equivalent to about 120g of brewery yeast for a 20L batch.

How you want to interpret that for your bottle starter, is up to you, and I never tested it out. There is no guarantee that their yeast will work the same in your vessels as it does in theirs, even if we were totally certain about the pitch rate. However, I stand by the idea of pitching it at the very cool end, ideally with a good starter, but I will happily defer to anyone who has used it successfully in a certain other way. The first few hours could probably be a little warmer, during the lag, in any case, though opinions vary on best practice there. My one 'test' was at least with a split batch, and the PJ certainly went to fruity/estery in the pale I was doing, at normal ale temperatures, though I used a different yeast for the rest of the batch.

Sorry I can't reference the info better now. I was pretty convinced I'd got it on good authority at the time, and I had seen tanks at 14C on the day (though I'd assumed they must be on their way down for chilling!). Too many brews to do; too little time!
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