1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

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Meatymc
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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by Meatymc » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:30 pm

Cheers MTW.

I think I'm between a rock and a hard place on this one! The dregs from 2 bottles didn't seem enough and then I've compounded that by not creating enough starter - I think I need more original 'material' and double the starter quantity.

I then didn't start this process soon enough meaning my wort has been sat, albeit in a sterilised container and as part of my usual process, for 2 days longer than I would normally.

Under the circumstances I'd pitch at a higher temperature than normal - say 20C instead of 18C(ish) but seems a bit against style for PJ.

So rightly or wrongly, I've gone for 16C - a compromise on both sides, and will keep an eye on things rather than ignoring it for the usual 10 days.

It seems unlikely this is going to turn out as planned but hey ho, live and learn as they say.

Thanks for the input everyone as usual.

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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by orlando » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:37 am

Don't beat yourself up, you've learnt a lot over this. You don't need more bottles of dregs. As long as you step up each starter to the appropriate level you can grow a pitchable amount no matter what the starting amount is. As you have recognised, it just takes time. The hardest thing is to remain sterile throughout the process, in such small numbers and with relatively low viability this is vital. Your current situation is likely to see an under pitch, which compared to over pitching is the worst of the two. All that's for the future, take notes as you go, they will help make next time a lot easier. =D> Final point, there is close to zero chance of making a clone beer at HB levels. There are so many variables and differences in the respective processes that the best you can hope for is a homage or inspired by beer, nothing wrong with that, it's all about the fun of trying.
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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by MTW » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:52 am

I didn't realise for sure that this was a PJ clone attempt, and there's a case for just using US05 or similar. That said, if you prefer the cask version, any slight under attenuation and lack of dry finish may not be so bad. Fingers crossed.
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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by Meatymc » Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:16 am

Thanks again guys - as you say, a learning experience.

To be brutally honest this is really aimed at cutting down overall cost. I know I'll have to buy the commercial beer in the 1st place but hope then to takeearly samples out of the subsequent fermenting wort as per IPA's method on an earlier post of mine on the Yeast forum (where this should probably be) - I think you were in on that one too Orlando?

With luck, I should be near self-sufficient in hops after this years harvest - if this works, it could mean self-sufficiency in yeast as well

As for a clone, I'm not expecting to get near the PJ but thought if I particularly like any one brew in the 1st place, there's more chance I'll like the brew I'd end up with. As I said at the beginning though, the bottled PJ is a sad imitation of the hand pulled I had.

And of course to clone, I'd need to be matching water profile. I've looked into treatment but it's a hell of a topic as a lot of folks say. Plus how do you know how any particular brewer treats (or not) their local supply.

I will report back on this trial in case anyone can benefit from the experience.

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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by MTW » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:26 pm

I concur with your philosophy there. It's nice to have a starting point, even if you don't aim for or achieve an exact clone of something.

The St Austell lot are a lovely bunch and would have gladly given me a flask of fresh yeast if I'd taken one, though it didn't fit into our holiday! Liquor wise, they have their own source, to which I think they have to add very little, perhaps a bit of gypsum if memory serves. Quite different up here in North Yorks.

Yes, please report back.

Big Job has only just started appearing up here. That beats PJ hands down for me , though neither are in super hop league, compared to many breweries. Their big batch kit uses a sort of whirlpool vessel. As I understand it, they don't dry hop beyond this... unless in cask?? So it's not a super big hop hit aroma, but good by regional brewery standards. I really want to try some of the beers from their micro kit, which was being installed when we were there. That looked like a playground for their imaginations, probably only for local release.
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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by Meatymc » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:48 pm

September holiday this year is a trip to Southern Brittany and then back for a week in Brixham. Not exactly next door to St Austell but I'm sure, if I put my mind to it, I can conjure a reason for visiting the town, and whilst we're there................

Should really be trying bottle conditioned ales from up here but not sure I've seen any with any meaningful sediment and not just a bottle conditioning strain. Anyone know of any?

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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by MTW » Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:43 pm

Meatymc wrote:September holiday this year is a trip to Southern Brittany and then back for a week in Brixham. Not exactly next door to St Austell but I'm sure, if I put my mind to it, I can conjure a reason for visiting the town, and whilst we're there................

Should really be trying bottle conditioned ales from up here but not sure I've seen any with any meaningful sediment and not just a bottle conditioning strain. Anyone know of any?
Brass Castle, Malton. House strain works well for them and I understand they crop and maintain it. Hoptical Illusion has the sediment, or always did, and you'd probably get some in any of their pins. I'd guess it may have originated as a common strain, but when it's been through a particular brewery a few times, I guess it adapts and mutates, depending how often they go back to square one.
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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by Meatymc » Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:58 pm

Bugger - they've just done a 'meet the brewer' at my local a couple of weks ago but I couldn't make it!!!

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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by Meatymc » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:26 pm

All that fuss and 2 days in (I know I shouldn't have looked) and it's off like a bloody train!!

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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by IPA » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:04 pm

Meatymc wrote:All that fuss and 2 days in (I know I shouldn't have looked) and it's off like a bloody train!!
What did I say in my earlier post? That amount of yeast is plenty for 23 litres. I find it amazing that ten years ago a half pint ( 250 ml ) was considered the norm now apparently you have to have two litres. Absolute "borax" I blame the Yanks. By the way why should you not of looked ?
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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by MTW » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:44 am

Meatymc wrote:All that fuss and 2 days in (I know I shouldn't have looked) and it's off like a bloody train!!
Great news. Is that at a controlled 16C (at least after the first 12-24 hrs)? It will be interesting to hear back.

I look all the time! I want to learn and make notes on what's happening, and you can't do that easily through a plastic bucket without lifting the lid an inch occasionally. Fitting bottom taps to my primary and secondary buckets was also one of the best moves ever, making occasional samples easy and risk-free. Anyway, that's going off topic...

I agree with IPA about the colossal numbers of yeast cells suggested nowadays supposedly required for a 'professional grade' fermentation. It's simply not borne out by my own limited experiments with well-shaken, but smaller starters, vs the times I have done stirred, stepped, 3.5L starters for my biggest beers; even some of them didn't quite reach the numbers of online calculators. Nor is it borne out by the many excellent and consistent beers I have tried from friends who I know to be 'under-pitching' by any received modern standard.

Once you get a bottle culture going healthily, with the 'goodies' out-competing the 'baddies' vigorously, I reckon you've done the hardest bit. Sounds like you did that successfully, finger crossed. Going straight into 500ml of wort with a couple of bottle dregs is (theoretically) asking a lot of the bottle yeast, though I sense that the domestic bottles here, and with relatively low to medium ABVs, are much more likely to take it than some of the imported (and higher ABV) Belgians I've played around with. For some of those, I reckon you'd be lucky to get away with such a big first step, even choosing the lower ABVs in a range.

I've played around with quite a few Belgian bottles, even without a brew to pitch them in! You get to see what appears to work (and fail) up to that point, and because you're not actually pitching them, you don't have to be QUITE so neurotic about the sanitation; you can merrily drink the contents of two 8% beers and carry on with a nice little experiment in the kitchen! A hobby-within-a-hobby.
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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by vacant » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:46 pm

vacant wrote:I'm due to brew soon. I was going to start some 1469 from a slant but all this talk of PJ makes me want to use that. I just need a sunny afternoon to down a couple of bottles. \:D/
OK, so I found a Quidco Offer for 4th August today only - free bottle of beer! But it's a 660ml of Becks, Stella or Bud. Toddled off to our Tesco Express and got 2 bottles of PJ and a bottle of Bud (no Becks). 3 for £5. I scanned the Tesco receipt into Quidco - maybe I'll get £2 cashback in a few weeks.

BUT .... I'd already had a pint of my rye ale before I went, and this Bud is just bland. Still, I'll force it down.

PJs are in the fridge to be "dealt with" tomorrow.
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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by Meatymc » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:25 am

Update....

Just to answer IPA's query about 'not looking', I only have an undercounter size brewing fridge and the fermenter only just fit's. To get a proper look at the wort I have to pull it out about half way to get the lid off hence concerned about exposing it to infection in the very early stages.

Been away for a long weekend so left on it's own at 16C after the initial 48 hours at 18C. Still has a healthy krausen on there which I'd normally expect to have started to disperse by now. Tested a (very clear) sample and currently at 1016 (from 1052) so will be leaving it for a few days. Very light coloured so have to ask whether it is only Maris as it says on the bottle (I added 50g wheat for HR) or if there is a little extra something in there. I prefer Optic as a base pale but have obviously gone Maris on this one but can't see that makes any difference.

Further report on bottling.

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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by vacant » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:38 am

Pub on Saturday night, gave my liver a rest with a couple of dry days so PJs still in fridge.

Quidco cashback came through just now & transferred to my bank account, result! 3 bottles for £3.

Short & easy brew day on Sunday, 3 1/2 hours including setup/pack away - 23 ltr single pot (grain basket), no-chill, 5.1kW of heating.
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Re: 1st attempt at recovered yeast starter

Post by Meatymc » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:30 am

Update.

Still a half inch, very healthy looking krausen - gravity at 1014. Upped to 18C to try and finish this off as really wanting to bottle on Sunday.

VERY nice tasting from the measure so high hopes on this one and defo will be using this process with the yeast - used IPA's method of taking yeast from the early stages of fermenting an IPA a couple of months ago - going to use as the base for the starter on a Vienna/Simcoe smash.

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