Hop matter in suspension

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soupdragon
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Hop matter in suspension

Post by soupdragon » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:16 pm

Hi all

I've been doing a few trial brews.......
I've removed the stupid bazooka filter from my ace brewer and now use a 200 micron spider for my hop additions. There's still a small amount of hop debris getting into my fermenter. About 4 days before kegging I've been adding 150g of mixed pellets, loose. At kegging time most of the debris has settled but some still finds it's way into the keg through the filter sock I use during transfer. I've no means of cold crashing so that's why I use the sock.

Non specific recipe info.....

Appx 4kg pale malt
200g Vienna
100g crystal

5g magnum at start of boil
60g mixed pellets at flame out
90g mixed pellets when cooled to 80c (20 mins)
150g mixed pellets dry hopped in primary 4 days before kegging, total 14 days in primary

Now to the point......

The resulting beers, while being full of nice fruity flavours and aromas are as cloudy as hell, have an overly bitter taste and the beer looks like one of those neipa jobs. I'm wondering if my "problem" is my lack of a reliable way of removing the dry hops and the cause of the flavour is hop debris?
So does anyone know what flavour the fine hop solids might impart on the finished beer?
The keg is usually empty in 2-3 weeks and the last glass is the same as the first. Serving fridge is set to 12c

Got another brew day tomorrow but when kegging time comes around I'll use a piece of voile instead of the small nylon sock (one from the festival kits) as it's a bit finer.
I know that using a good amount of hops can throw a haze but I'm sure I shouldn't be getting this harsh bitter taste too

Cheers for any wisdom. Tom

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keith1664
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Re: Hop matter in suspension

Post by keith1664 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:07 am

You're going to struggle to get a clear beer with that hopping schedule unless you leave it ages to drop out, by which time you'll have lost a lot of the hop flavour and aroma.
As for the harsh bitterness, that's your dry hops.
I've had the same, then I made one of those NEIPA jobs using those new fangled Cryo hops. Wow! Intense hop aroma and flavour without the astringency.
You need to drink em quick though... and not be too hung up on clarity.

EDIT

Don't forget that your flameout and 80c steep hops will also be adding bitterness.

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 44.0
Total Grain (kg): 9.200
Total Hops (g): 350.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.048 (°P): 11.9
Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (°P): 3.3
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.59 %
Colour (SRM): 4.3 (EBC): 8.5
Bitterness (IBU): 26.6 (Tinseth)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 75
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
4.000 kg United Kingdom - Lager (43.48%)
2.000 kg German - Vienna (21.74%)
2.000 kg United Kingdom - Wheat (21.74%)
0.800 kg Rolled Oats (8.7%)
0.400 kg German - CaraHell (4.35%)

Hop Bill
----------------
50.0 g Citra Pellet (11% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (1.1 g/L)
50.0 g Galaxy Pellet (15.1% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (1.1 g/L)
25.0 g Equanot (Cryo) Pellet (31% Alpha) @ 80c steep 30 Minutes (Aroma) (0.6 g/L)
25.0 g Mosaic (Cryo) Pellet (22% Alpha) @ 80c steep 30 Minutes (Aroma) (0.6 g/L)
100.0 g Citra Pellet (11% Alpha) @ 2 Days (Dry Hop) (2.3 g/L)
50.0 g Equanot (Cryo) Pellet (31% Alpha) @ 2 Days (Dry Hop) (1.1 g/L)
50.0 g Mosaic (Cryo) Pellet (22% Alpha) @ 2 Days (Dry Hop) (1.1 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------

Single step Infusion at 68°C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 20°C with London Ale III 1318
Last edited by keith1664 on Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Hop matter in suspension

Post by soupdragon » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:09 am

Hi Keith

I'm not really bothered about the haze/cloud. I do understand that when using a healthy dose of hops that there will be some haze. My main concern is the bitterness. I factored in 10-15 mins worth of bittering for the f/o hops but didn't allow for the 80c addition thinking that isomerisation shouldn't happen below 80?
My worry, and I've changed my planned brew today because of it, is the amount of vegetal matter that I was unable to prevent getting into the keg. I usually dry hop with 50-100g of pellets for 7-8 days and 95% of them have dropped at kegging time even without crash cooling so have never had this much greenery get through. The one occasion I dry hopped for 3-4 days before I only used 30g ish so I'm thinking that the bittering is a combination of the sheer mass of carry over into the keg from the larger/shorter contact time.......

So what are these Cryo hops all about? I've seen them mentioned briefly but never really paid that much attention to them as I'm fully stocked with hops at the moment....

Cheers Tom

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Re: Hop matter in suspension

Post by keith1664 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:56 am

To quote the website

"LupuLN2 is the concentrated lupulin of whole-leaf hops containing resins and aromatic oils. It is designed to provide intense hop flavor and aroma, enabling brewers to dose large quantities of hops without introducing astringent flavors or vegetative cone material. During early R&D trials, brewers specifically cited ‘juicy’ and ‘resinous’ characteristics. LupuLN2 offers twice the resin content of traditional whole-leaf and hop pellet products, and should be dosed at approximately half the amount by weight."
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Re: Hop matter in suspension

Post by soupdragon » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:48 pm

Hi Keith

They sound interesting. Will probably add some to my order next time I need a sack of grain.
Do you think you had a threshold of a certain quantity of pellets as dry hops before you got the harsh bitterness or did it depend on the variety used?

Cheers. Tom

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Re: Hop matter in suspension

Post by soupdragon » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:07 pm

https://homebrew.stackexchange.com/ques ... erness/url

Interesting read.
Any thoughts?

Cheers. Tom

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Re: Hop matter in suspension

Post by keith1664 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:19 pm

soupdragon wrote:Hi Keith

They sound interesting. Will probably add some to my order next time I need a sack of grain.
Do you think you had a threshold of a certain quantity of pellets as dry hops before you got the harsh bitterness or did it depend on the variety used?

Cheers. Tom
I'll have to check my notes on that but I'm on my way to the pub!

As for dry hopping adding bitterness, they're bitter, how could they not?


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Re: Hop matter in suspension

Post by soupdragon » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:15 pm

How do the cryo hops behave in the fermenter? Do they settle out after about a week like pellets (without crash cooling that is)?

Cheers. Tom

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Re: Hop matter in suspension

Post by keith1664 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:22 pm

soupdragon wrote:How do the cryo hops behave in the fermenter? Do they settle out after about a week like pellets (without crash cooling that is)?

Cheers. Tom
They like to float on top, I got mine to drop out with 4 days at 0c.

I was talking about them with an Adnams brewer recently, apparently they'd been trying them in Mosaic and had trouble with them sitting on top of the beer. His advice was to draw off some beer mix in the cryo hops then chuck it back in with vigour!


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Re: Hop matter in suspension

Post by soupdragon » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:27 pm

Sounds a bit risky :shock:

Cheers. Tom

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Re: Hop matter in suspension

Post by keith1664 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:16 pm

It does but he said not to worry about oxidation... I much prefer Ghostship to Mosaic though.

Anyway looking at my notes, of the 3 what I'd call heavily dry hopped beers I've made. 40L batch size

#1 was very nice
20g Magnum 60 min
50g Citra 5 min
100g each of Citra and Mosaic 80c steep for 30 min
100g each of Citra and Mosaic dry hop after 2 days

#2 Had a very harsh bitterness
20g Saphir 60min
20g each Citra and Mosaic 10 min
50g each Citra and Mosaic 100c steep for 30 min

I use 2 FV's of 20L and did a different dry hop to each, I also dry hopped it twice.

FV#1 25g Galaxy 50g Amarillo at 3 and 10 days
FV#2 40g Citra 40g Mosaic at 3 and 10 days.

Cooled to 1c after 12 days and kegged at day 15 with finings, this one dropped clear.

#3 was the recipe I posted previously, this was lush.

I had thought my second beer turned out harsh due to the double dry hops and the first lot being in there nearly 2 weeks, however both our beers have an addition at flameout?

Hopefully some of this is of use.
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Re: Hop matter in suspension

Post by soupdragon » Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:09 pm

So the one that was really bitter had 310g of dry hops in 44 litres, the 1st (nice brew) had 200g and the 3rd (also nice) had 100g of pellet and 100g of cryo pellet.
The bitter brew was the only one to have a 100c/30 min steep of 100g.
Hmmmm, he says to himself. I may try removing the flame out addition next time I brew it again and maybe give the dry hops a few extra days to settle out. Further down the line I'll get some cryo hops to play with.
Out of curiosity I pulled a glass of the beer off and put it into our proper fridge for a few hours to see if anything would settle out. In a word, no. So whatever it is it's in solution not suspension

Cheers. Tom

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Re: Hop matter in suspension

Post by scuppeteer » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:54 pm

Sorry, not read all the posts, but my two penny worth... for what its worth.
Hop haze cannot be removed or eased without cold crashing. The fine debris of the hop will not drop out with auxiliary or isinglass finings they're just not designed to deal with it.
Cold crashing will not remove the particles but will improve the clarity slightly, unless, as already mentioned it is left for at least a couple of months or more.
Drink from a opaque tankard and you wont be able to tell anyway. ;)
Dave Berry


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Re: Hop matter in suspension

Post by soupdragon » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:55 pm

scuppeteer wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:54 pm
Sorry, not read all the posts, but my two penny worth... for what its worth.
Hop haze cannot be removed or eased without cold crashing. The fine debris of the hop will not drop out with auxiliary or isinglass finings they're just not designed to deal with it.
Cold crashing will not remove the particles but will improve the clarity slightly, unless, as already mentioned it is left for at least a couple of months or more.
Drink from a opaque tankard and you wont be able to tell anyway. ;)
Hi Dave

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not really that bothered about the haze. I know that heavily hopped beers will suffer (?) in that respect. My main concern is the harsh bitterness that is present

Cheers. Tom

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