Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

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mrboxpiff
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Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by mrboxpiff » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:54 pm

I know this has been talked about quite a few times before, but I'm still unsure about the effectiveness of a solution if it goes milky/cloudy.
I usually use Ashbeck like a lot of people, but got a 5l Waitrose bottle of water which has a slightly higher pH. It went cloudy almost immediately. Some say that that means it's no longer effective, whilst I've also heard people say it makes no difference.
Can someone give me a definitive answer please?

TIA

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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by FUBAR » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:14 am

As long as the PH is below 3 it will work to specifications.
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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by Fil » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:43 am

going cloudy is an indicator that starsan may have expired just as having ginger hair is an indicator of having a scots accent, a ph test as said above is the only test you should rely on. a cheap book of ph indicator papers is a worthwhile investment for testing starsan solutions you have saved from earlier brewdays.
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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by MTW » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:02 am

FUBAR wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:14 am
As long as the PH is below 3 it will work to specifications.
Max pH 3.5 it used to say on the label IIRC

Going cloudy means it's reacted with minerals in the water which essentially are starting to form soap, which is never good. More SS will need to be added where the water is alkaline enough to do that to achieve the pH. pH is the only guide to if it's sanitising effectively, but I don't want soapy solution lining my vessels personally, so I'd start again with very low mineral water.
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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by guypettigrew » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:43 am

For making up Star San I use reverse osmosis water from my local aquatic shop. 14p/litre. Doesn't go cloudy if you use this.

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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by mrboxpiff » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:45 am

Ummm, thanks for the replies, sounding as if I need to chuck out and start again. Will def have to get some ph papers which as said are cheap enough.

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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by Jim » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:19 pm

It's cheap enough that it's not worth taking the chance imo.
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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by Aleman » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:42 pm

This is what I've gleaned from the various posts and webcasts that Charlie Talley of 5 Star has done

If it's cloudy and below pH3 then it's fine to use, BUT DO NOT make up extra and store it.

If it's clear, and below pH 3.0, make up a lot of working solution, store it, use as required

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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by wessexwyvern » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:18 pm

From an interview with Charlie Talley for the newsletter...

The ingredients that are in Star San are based on food grade or G.R.A.S. materials (Generally Recognized as Safe). They are phosphoric acid, dodecyl benzene sulfonic acid (DDBSA), propylene glycol, and a coupling agent. When it is diluted to 300 ppms one ounce per 5 (US) gallons of water or 1.5-1.6 mls/liter the actives are 300 ppms of DDBSA and 930 ppms of phosphoric acid. This will produce an end pH of 2.5 to 3.5 (depending on the alkalinity of the water used for make up. Where the confusion comes in is the length of time the solution can be kept and how can you tell if it is still good. The answer lies with the acid concentration and the types of minerals in the water. When there is a high calcium or carbonate content in the water the pH of the end solution will approach 3.5 if it is above this then the solution will not kill micro-organisms. Because phosphoric acid is a poor chelator* for manganese this element if present in the water will react with the DDBSA and make a type of hard mineral soap. This soap is the cloud that will some times appear in a Star San Solution. The amount of this mineral and in some cases even iron can be chelated by using citric acid in the make up water. Most of the time I tell brewers to use a mixture of DI water or distilled what that is common in super markets. As long as the solution is clear and the pH is below 3.5 it will kill, how long this is will depend on the amount of times used and how clean the equipment was when sanitized.

ie what Aleman said.

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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by MTW » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:48 pm

3.5 or lower then. Glad my memory hadn't failed me. I think the directions may say 3 now, from what I can Google.
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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by Aleman » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:31 pm

One thing I will say, is that I treat it as one use, I.e. pour/ spray, shake, drain out . . . NEVER collect and reuse, that should be a golden rule for any sanitiser . . . Never, Ever, Reuse.

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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by mrboxpiff » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:31 pm

Aleman wrote:One thing I will say, is that I treat it as one use, I.e. pour/ spray, shake, drain out . . . NEVER collect and reuse, that should be a golden rule for any sanitiser . . . Never, Ever, Reuse.
So am I right is saying that the ideal base liquid is de-ionized water and if so where's the best place to buy it?

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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by FUBAR » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:12 am

Euro car parts very often do good deals on water.
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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by chefgage » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:28 am

I have always used bottled water to make up my star San. It's the same water I use for my brewing water, from Asda with a PH of 6.4. I have never had an infection but to be honest I have never tested the PH of the made up star San to see if it's below a PH of 3.5/3

Out of interest I have just got the spray bottle out which had some left over star San in it. I never re-use star San that has been collected from the bottling tree/bottling bucket used for sanitising components but will carry on using the UNUSED star San in the spray bottle from a previous brew day. Anyway the spray bottle I use is an opaque colour so the star San looks milky anyway. I have tipped this out into a glass and it is indeed got a milky tinge colour to it (certainly not as milky as proper milk but still a bit opaque in colour). This star San was made up on Saturday so only 3 days ago so in my case it has not kept well.

As an experiment I have just made up some fresh star San in a glass and when made up it is completely see through so at a guess it's ok to use with the bottled water I am using.

For good measure though I am going to order some PH strips later to test the made up star San. Also I will be emptying out the UNUSED star San after a brew day.

Interestingly though is the star San in the fermenter air lock. This is still clear :)

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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by Aleman » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:02 am

I buy deionised Iron water from Morrisons . . . but that's because I can hide it on the grocery bill :D.

Be careful with 'water' from ECP . . . Battery top up water may contain sulphuric acid ;)

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