Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

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PhilB
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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by PhilB » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:23 am

Hi
wessexwyvern wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:18 pm
The answer lies with the acid concentration and the types of minerals in the water. When there is a high calcium or carbonate content in the water the pH of the end solution will approach 3.5 if it is above this then the solution will not kill micro-organisms. Because phosphoric acid is a poor chelator* for manganese this element if present in the water will react with the DDBSA and make a type of hard mineral soap. This soap is the cloud that will some times appear in a Star San Solution. The amount of this mineral and in some cases even iron can be chelated by using citric acid in the make up water. Most of the time I tell brewers to use a mixture of DI water or distilled what that is common in super markets.
... I don't think I've ever seen that bit that I've highlighted there before ... is anyone out there doing this? Anyone care to suggest what amounts of citric acid would be necessary?

It seems to me that it would be a lot easier keeping a pot of citric acid with the bottle of Star San and adding a little to some tap water (to reduce the alkalinity (to keep the pH low) and chelate the managanese/iron (to keep the solution from going cloudy)) before making a Star San solution up, rather than lugging bottled or distilled water back from the supermarket or garden/aquatics centre every so often :?

Cheers, PhilB

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Sadfield
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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by Sadfield » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:19 am

PhilB wrote:Hi
wessexwyvern wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:18 pm
The answer lies with the acid concentration and the types of minerals in the water. When there is a high calcium or carbonate content in the water the pH of the end solution will approach 3.5 if it is above this then the solution will not kill micro-organisms. Because phosphoric acid is a poor chelator* for manganese this element if present in the water will react with the DDBSA and make a type of hard mineral soap. This soap is the cloud that will some times appear in a Star San Solution. The amount of this mineral and in some cases even iron can be chelated by using citric acid in the make up water. Most of the time I tell brewers to use a mixture of DI water or distilled what that is common in super markets.
... I don't think I've ever seen that bit that I've highlighted there before ... is anyone out there doing this? Anyone care to suggest what amounts of citric acid would be necessary?

It seems to me that it would be a lot easier keeping a pot of citric acid with the bottle of Star San and adding a little to some tap water (to reduce the alkalinity (to keep the pH low) and chelate the managanese/iron (to keep the solution from going cloudy)) before making a Star San solution up, rather than lugging bottled or distilled water back from the supermarket or garden/aquatics centre every so often :?

Cheers, PhilB
Not noticed that before either Phil, but will take a little Citric Acid home from work to investigate.

Although, I'm firmly in the use and discard camp, as it works out so cheap.

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simon12
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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by simon12 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:01 pm

Just out of interest, I am assuming starsan doesn't work just because its PH <3 ie you can't just use any liquid under PH 3 to sanitise. Am I right or does PH<3 sanitize with any liquid and starsan is just a good way to get there.

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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by Jim » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:51 pm

While I agree it's safer to discard after use, I must confess that I reuse starsan for up to a month before chucking it and making a new batch. Obviously I don't reuse any that's become contaminated with muck or crap of any kind. Never had a problem yet (cue famous last words..).
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PhilB
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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by PhilB » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:54 pm

Hi Steve
Sadfield wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:19 am
Although, I'm firmly in the use and discard camp, as it works out so cheap.
... yeah, personally I'm firmly in the very dilute bleach and vinegar solution as no-rinse sanitiser camp myself (if anyone wants to use this, please research dilution rates thoroughly first and never mix bleach and vinegar together directly [-X ) which I also always discard after use. I just wondered why this other bit of advice from Tally had been overlooked ... I did do a quick search and there doesn't seem to be loads of people on other forums talking about using citric that way. It seems that the advice that Tally himself says he gives "Most of the time" appears to have been universally accepted :?

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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by Eric » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:47 pm

PhilB wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:54 pm

... yeah, personally I'm firmly in the very dilute bleach and vinegar solution as no-rinse sanitiser camp myself (if anyone wants to use this, please research dilution rates thoroughly first and never mix bleach and vinegar together directly [-X ) which I also always discard after use.

Cheers, PhilB
What pH do you achieve? With my water I find it impossible to get down to pH 5 with vinegar (5% acetic acid) so have tended to stick with bleach and rinse.
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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by Fil » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:02 pm

i will keep starsan thats been mixed and unused, but solution thats been used always gets discarded.

when i started brewing the sanitation promoted in my then battered brew bibles involved a 5% bleach solution neutralised with i think a 5% sodium metabisulphate solution. while i didnt ever get any infections I did occasionally get a very noticeable tcp taint, probably down to my mixing..
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PhilB
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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by PhilB » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:21 pm

Hi Eric
Eric wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:47 pm
PhilB wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:54 pm
... yeah, personally I'm firmly in the very dilute bleach and vinegar solution as no-rinse sanitiser camp myself (if anyone wants to use this, please research dilution rates thoroughly first and never mix bleach and vinegar together directly [-X ) which I also always discard after use.

Cheers, PhilB
What pH do you achieve? With my water I find it impossible to get down to pH 5 with vinegar (5% acetic acid) so have tended to stick with bleach and rinse.
... I must admit, I've never checked the pH of the resultant solution :oops: ... but in my defence, I do have quite low alkalinity water (<40 mg/l as CaCO3) ... and I only use it as no-rinse steriliser for bottles and caps on bottling days (at all other times I don't find rinsing too much of a pain, so everything else gets the bleach and rinse treatment) ... I've been using it like that for over a year now and I've only had one "gusher" in that time, and I think I'd probably put that one down to my not cleaning thoroughly enough BEFORE using the no-rinse, TBH :?

Anyway, wasn't meaning to divert the thread away from Star San, just wondering why this "pre-treating with citric acid" option isn't recommended more :?

Cheers, PhilB

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Sadfield
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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by Sadfield » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:12 pm

I suspect it'll be because it is a dosing issue dependant on the source.

Just running a test now.

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Sadfield
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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by Sadfield » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:33 pm

Three bottles of c125ppm CaCO3 tap water dosed with Maltmiller own brand Starsan at 1.5g/L. Left to right. Untreated, pretreated with 2g/L Citric Acid, pretreated with 10g/L Citric Acid.

Image

Will work out the correct level of adjustment when I have more time.

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Last edited by Sadfield on Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by Wonkydonkey » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:35 pm

Aleman wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:02 am
I buy deionised Iron water from Morrisons . . . but that's because I can hide it on the grocery bill :D.

Be careful with 'water' from ECP . . . Battery top up water may contain sulphuric acid ;)
ive never heard water for battery topup may contain sulphuric acid, the bottle should have a big bright red warning if it does contain H2SO4.
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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by mr_bridger » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:00 am

[quote="Sadfield"]Three bottles of c125ppm CaCO3 tap water dosed with Maltmiller own brand Starsan at 1.5g/L. Left to right. Untreated, pretreated with 2g/L Citric Acid, pretreated with 10g/L Citric Acid.

[IMG]//uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201709 ... b2f63b.jpg[/IMG]

Will work out the correct level of adjustment when I have more time.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk[/quote]Looks quite conclusive. Do I you use citric acid powder? I have a big tub i bought a while ago for something else I've not even opened, I do suffer from cloudy starsan so interested to try.

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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by Kev888 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:22 am

Interesting, though (as mentioned above) cloudiness is a bit vague as a guide; the pH should really be measured before reaching conclusions.
Kev

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Sadfield
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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by Sadfield » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:58 pm

@mr_bridger They were granules.

Was curious to see the effect. I think if you have the citric to hand then it probably won't do any harm to use it, but simply checking the pH is probably the best action if cloudy.

I quite often use Tesco Ashbeck water as the 5L bottles are a handy single use container for Yeast Starters (shaken, not stirred).

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Re: Sorry, still need some clarification with Stan San

Post by tourer » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:32 pm

I use RO water from one of those aquatic shops (it's cheap) and i dont get a problem, yes it's pain to collect but it lasts a long time. I used to get a problem with it going milky and i found that it was because my bottles weren't dry before starsaning.

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