Excessive yeast growth

[PeeBee]

How can you be better off avoiding the optimum, or somewhere at least close to it?

So you know these "optimums" to be correct then? And the linked article is rubbish? Well there is no good substantiating evidence for the linked article either, so it might well be rubbish. Have you read the linked article? Doesn't that answer your question?

[McMullan]

So you know these "optimums" to be correct then? And the linked article is rubbish? Well there is no good substantiating evidence for the linked article either, so it might well be rubbish. Have you read the linked article? Doesn't that answer your question?

The optimum (i.e. what works best) isn’t a value that can be offered up to answer your question. And don’t trust anyone who tries to offer one. It depends on the brewer, the wort and the yeast strain. You have to determine what is optimal in your situation. Aim for what’s predicted to get about 10ppm into solution, a 1-minute ‘simmer’. Then, in subsequent brews, adjust up or down, if you’re not happy with the initial fermentation performance and/or attenuation level. You don’t need to know that you are dissolving 10ppm exactly in the wort. What you decide to do next time is going to be relative to what you did first time; adjust up or down, if you’re not happy; or keep it as it is, if you are happy with the result. This is how the optimum is figured out, empirically, in brewing. You need to keep detailed notes recording fermentation over time. Measure gravity every 12 hours, at least every 24 hours. After several brews, you should arrive at the optimum for the wort and yeast strain being pitched. And, in terms of yeast pitching rate, aim to over-pitch slightly rather than err on under-pitching. Advising home brewers to err on under pitching yeast, without knowledge of yeast condition, is crap advice.

[orlando]

So you know these "optimums" to be correct then? And the linked article is rubbish? Well there is no good substantiating evidence for the linked article either, so it might well be rubbish. Have you read the linked article? Doesn't that answer your question?

The optimum (i.e. what works best) isn’t a value that can be offered up to answer your question. And don’t trust anyone who tries to offer one. It depends on the brewer, the wort and the yeast strain. You have to determine what is optimal in your situation. Aim for what’s predicted to get about 10ppm into solution, a 1-minute ‘simmer’. Then, in subsequent brews, adjust up or down, if you’re not happy with the initial fermentation performance and/or attenuation level. You don’t need to know that you are dissolving 10ppm exactly in the wort. What you decide to do next time is going to be relative to what you did first time; adjust up or down, if you’re not happy; or keep it as it is, if you are happy with the result. This is how the optimum is figured out, empirically, in brewing. You need to keep detailed notes recording fermentation over time. Measure gravity every 12 hours, at least every 24 hours. After several brews, you should arrive at the optimum for the wort and yeast strain being pitched. And, in terms of yeast pitching rate, aim to over-pitch slightly rather than err on under-pitching. Advising home brewers to err on under pitching yeast, without knowledge of yeast condition, is crap advice.

That's excellent advice, thanks.

[PeeBee]

... That's excellent advice, thanks.

Hey! You're undermining useful features of forums by displaying posts by "proxy". Glad you think useful advice is being offered, I rather thought the only thing being offered is "Kim Jong-un" style diplomacy lessons. I only provide "crap advise" by-the-way.

Some of the "advise" I can take on-board; or perhaps I already have?

The brew in question. Guess that indicates over-oxygenation? The result of aiming for "10ppm" oxygen but finding no advise of how to judge it - the "1-minute" advise is specifically for 23-25L so I guessed at 90 seconds for 45L. What I should have done is erred on under-doing it and stuck to 1 minute (perhaps even less) - but careful, this is "crap advise" coming from me.

[McMullan]

You only need an O2 flow rate that produces a gentle ‘simmer’ at the wort surface. A ’boil’ is just wasting O2 to the air. I’m not sure how much difference there is between 5 and 10 gallons, in terms of oxygenating. The O2 rises through more wort in 10 gallons. You’ll probably find you up the flow rate to get a comparable ‘simmer’ in 10 gallons. So a minute might achieve a DO level similar to that in 5 gallons?

[orlando]

Hey! You're undermining useful features of forums by displaying posts by "proxy". Glad you think useful advice is being offered, I rather thought the only thing being offered is "Kim Jong-un" style diplomacy lessons. I only provide "crap advise" by-the-way.

I have no idea what that means. The advice on how to arrive at an optimum was excellent. I've made no observation on your advice.

[PeeBee]

... I have no idea what that means. The advice on how to arrive at an optimum was excellent. I've made no observation on your advice.

Sorry, I didn't make my comments clear, I was referring to what you were quoting from. I've PM-ed an explanation.

[Kev888]

I confess that I'm still struggling to see any great problem that needs addressing. The somewhat high temperature almost certainly explains the (slightly) enthusiastic characteristics mentioned in the OP; after correcting that then it should be about right. Subsequent relative/empirical adjustments should arrive at the optimum for your individual circumstances and preferences far better than chasing generic guidelines; these are useful if you are way out, but I don't see anything to suggest that.

[McMullan]

Going from 1.058 to 1.016 in 48 hours is not what I'd aim for, TBH. I've had some very rapid experiments. Few have rewarded me.

[Kev888]

Indeed. In this case with WLP002, a few degrees cooler would have solved that IMO, it does seem to get disproportionately carried away with warmer temperature, especially if the viability or pitching rate was high. At ~19c I get much the same fermentation characteristics as the OP but the vigorous stage lasts around 3days, and FG after two or three more.

[PeeBee]

I confess that I'm still struggling to see any great problem that needs addressing. The somewhat high temperature almost certainly explains the (slightly) enthusiastic characteristics mentioned in the OP; after correcting that then it should be about right. Subsequent relative/empirical adjustments should arrive at the optimum for your individual circumstances and preferences far better than chasing generic guidelines; these are useful if you are way out, but I don't see anything to suggest that.

I panicked because the yeast growth was such that it filled the dead-space in my conical, filled the racking tube, and stalled the transfer pump that I was to use to get the stuff out. I cleared it once and it filled up again. The pump was also being used to cool he fermenter, but the original less efficient system was still in place so no great shakes.

Liquid yeast was new to me, as was pure oxygen, and things were going far from smoothly.

It's a very long time since I lost a brew, and now, with the large brew-lengths and fairly large amount of effort involved I didn't care much for the idea of loosing some now. I need to be pretty sure of what I did to be happy its not going to happen again.

[PeeBee]

Indeed. In this case with WLP002, a few degrees cooler would have solved that IMO, it does seem to get disproportionately carried away with warmer temperature, especially if the viability or pitching rate was high. At ~19c I get much the same fermentation characteristics as the OP but the vigorous stage lasts around 3days, and FG after two or three more.

Thanks Kev.

The wayward beer is safe in its kegs and some of the collected yeast ends up in my bread. Here's a sample from one of the jugs upended on a plate (it's like potty-putty, you can't spoon it 'cos it just fractures into pieces):

3L of dead space in the fermenter was full of it along with the racking arm - the transfer pump wasn't too happy when it got asked to deal with that.

The next brew went on as soon as the fermenter was available again - also a clone of a "Fuller's" beer using the WLP002 yeast, this time the weaker "London Pride" (rather than "1845"). Slightly under-pitched at a calculated 0.63million-cells/ml/degree-Plato (depending on the guidance employed - over-pitched to some which considers 0.5 to be okay). Somewhat less oxygen (45 seconds in 45L) and keeping the temperature below 20C. I started dumping yeast early, after 24 hours, but stopped after collecting 1/4L with no excessive yeast. And fermentation was a much more leisurely time:

So what went "wrong" with the previous brew. Firstly, nothing went wrong, I only panicked because of my fermenters peculiar configuration, the transfer pump couldn't cope with the yeast. I did not seriously over-oxygenate: the often quoted guidance comes from the book "Yeast" (Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff) from which a 90 second blast can be estimated as producing 12ppm in 20L; perhaps less in 45L (but as I was using the same rule-of-thumb, enough gas to just break the surface, I doubt it is less ... and as my flow meter has now turned up I could see I was using about 1.3-1.5L O2 per minute rather than the 1L suggested). That rules out oxygen. The pitch rate calculator suggested I'd have about 0.75million-cells/ml/degree-Plato which wouldn't be over-doing it. So that leaves letting the temperature go a couple of degrees over recommended with a yeast prone to getting "disproportionately carried away". That puts a lid on it.

Thanks everyone for all the help. I hope someone will find this post handy faced with similar issues. But this thread offers no advice, at the moment there are too many variables to make definable sense of it all. And for anyone reading this far - well done, that displays a good deal of stamina.

[IPA]

A word of advice. I advise you to check the diffference

[PeeBee]

A word of advice. I advise you to check the diffference

Hell's teeth, grammar lessons! I did check ... http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2014 ... se-advice/.

Fink I got it rite now? Can I get out of the naughty corner?

[IPA]

A word of advice. I advise you to check the diffference

Hell's teeth, grammar lessons! I did check ... http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2014 ... se-advice/.

Fink I got it rite now? Can I get out of the naughty corner?