Kettle trub blocking filter

Get advice on making beer from raw ingredients (malt, hops, water and yeast)
Post Reply
User avatar
dean_wales
Drunk as a Skunk
Posts: 991
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:13 pm
Location: Welshman exiled in Exeter!

Kettle trub blocking filter

Post by dean_wales » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:29 pm

Hi everyone,

I am determined to crack the latter stages of my brew day. The chilling and draining to the fermenter have never worked well and cause losses, infection risk and slow things down. I also had really bad clarity on my last batch.

My boiler is a 100L litre stainless kettle with a 1/2 BSP center drain. For last weeks brew I knocked together a hop/break filter from a 1/2BSP elbow with a short length of 15mm copper inserted. The copper had lots of holes and was subsequently wrapped in a fine stainless mesh envelope.

It stayed put in the boiler and recirculation with a pump during the boiler went well. I added protofloc at 10mins. Recipe was Belgian with only 35g of pellets at 90min and 100g leaf at 10min.

In short during chilling it completely clogged up and the run off slowed to a trickle, no matter how hard I ran the pump. Photo below. The filter was absolutely solid with break material.

Do you experience the same and what can I do about it? I am thinking of using a tee rather than an elbow so that there is twice as much filter and also not running the pump as long? Feel like it would have worked with a load of whole hops.

Thanks,
Dean.
20171029_191601.jpg
Click here for my cider pressing...
Click here to see my 20% Damson port experiment...
Click here for red wine from my allotment vine...

User avatar
gr_baker
Piss Artist
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 1:52 pm

Re: Kettle trub blocking filter

Post by gr_baker » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:17 pm

Hi,

you indicate that you're recirculating during the boil. What's the reason for doing this? You shouldn't need to.

How are you chilling the wort? Do you use an immersion chiller and also recirculate during this process? If so then I think that may be contributing to the problem as it will be creating a current that will draw trub to the filter and the time taken to chill the wort will give this current time to pull all the trub to the filter. It'd be better to chill with no recirculation and then use the pump to draw off the wort to the fermenter.

If you use a counterflow chiller then the output should be at fermentation temperature and you should be able to run this straight into the fermenter without any recirculation.

Russell

User avatar
dean_wales
Drunk as a Skunk
Posts: 991
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:13 pm
Location: Welshman exiled in Exeter!

Re: Kettle trub blocking filter

Post by dean_wales » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:31 pm

I circulated during the last 10mins of the boiler to sanitise the pump, hoses and fittings. Seems to be recieved wisdom but I could achieve this with Starsan if I was careful.

I recirculated during chilling (with a copper immersion) as again received wisom is that this speeds up the chilling process and allows a filter bed to be established. I did notice a marked improvement in time taken to chill and the clarity was great, see picture below.

I recirculate the mash and never have a blockage, that's why I am so gutted to have one here.

Unless I can improve/change things I suppose I will have to save the pump just for draining the kettle and/or rely on gravity only for that. Seems a shame to loose those perks though!

Dean.
Attachments
20171028_150031.jpg
Click here for my cider pressing...
Click here to see my 20% Damson port experiment...
Click here for red wine from my allotment vine...

User avatar
gr_baker
Piss Artist
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 1:52 pm

Re: Kettle trub blocking filter

Post by gr_baker » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:05 pm

Ah OK. Yes you need to sterilise the chiller and 5-10 minutes should be ok. But I'd leave off circulating during the cooling. It will mix up the wort and whilst that will possibly speed up the chilling process it might be contributing to the problem. When I used to use an immersion chiller, it took about 30 minutes to drop 25 litres of wort to pitching temperature. I'd then run off using gravity and the cold break material would be spread all over the bottom rather than around the filter like yours.

One other thought is that the flow through your pump when you're running off might be too much and making this current that moves the trub. Can you turn down the pump speed or use a tap to restrict the flow?

Russell

Fil
Telling imaginary friend stories
Posts: 5229
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: Cowley, Oxford

Re: Kettle trub blocking filter

Post by Fil » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:32 pm

in addition to not recirculating but simply stirring for the chill, let the brew sit and settle for 25-30 minutes post chilling, this should allow the hops and break material to settle and form a sort of primary filtration bed and allow you a clean drain of the kettle.

look at alternative hop filter options, the garth style mesh envelopes have huge surface areas and hardly ever clog or foul, and a couple of ss mesh splatter guards bound at the edge with a length of split beerline is a budget build.

almost all hop filters can be upgraded by slipping a nylon mesh bag over them too ;)
ist update for months n months..
Fermnting: not a lot..
Conditioning: nowt
Maturing: Challenger smash, and a kit lager
Drinking: dry one minikeg left in the store
Coming Soon Lots planned for the near future nowt for the immediate :(

User avatar
Kev888
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7701
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:22 pm
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: Kettle trub blocking filter

Post by Kev888 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:30 pm

Recirculation during the boil is something I find important for disinfecting the outlet valve/hoses/CFC etc so it is good that this works.

But things get more difficult for the filter after adding kettle finings and when the break has settled. Make sure you aren't over-doing the kettle finings; a quarter of a whirlflock/protofloc tablet in 25L, certainly less than half a tablet, is sufficient.

I can't see from the picture, but ultimately you're likely to have trouble with the hop filter unless you let hops settle over it before running off. It is the hops which form the filter bed for the break and stop the break getting to (and so clogging) the filter. Happily by waiting say 20mins the hops will settle before most of the break and so do this naturally.

If you use pellets it is more challenging because they can block the filter, too. But they are not as bad as the break. Generally pellet users employ a whirlpool rather than a filter, but filters can be used if they are very large - e.g. the mesh envelope type.
Last edited by Kev888 on Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kev

User avatar
orlando
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7197
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: Kettle trub blocking filter

Post by orlando » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:42 am

There is no reason to think recirculating whilst chilling isn't an option, there are many benefits to be had doing this. The question then is how is this best achieved, Fil & Kev provide three parts to the answer. First careful with the kettle finings it is too easy to overdo it. Second, using some leaf hops along side the pellets provides a two stage filter less likely to block. Third, a mesh envelope as wide as you can get it, made or bought, will provide a large enough surface area that the whirlpooling effect will pile the trub into the middle of the pot leaving the outside areas of the mesh free to draw clear wort. Simple. :D

Might need the Photobucket hot fix to see this. :wink:


Image
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

JonA

Re: Kettle trub blocking filter

Post by JonA » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:13 am

That's a nice ss mesh filter. Is it bought or made? mine is on it's last legs :)

User avatar
orlando
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7197
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: Kettle trub blocking filter

Post by orlando » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:50 am

Brew Builder FO version. Worth every penny totally brilliant.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

nastyphoenix

Re: Kettle trub blocking filter

Post by nastyphoenix » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:13 pm

This is a common problem, even in commercial breweries. The simple solution is to have a bigger filter - bigger holes and larger surface area. You could even wrap some perforated or sinter stainless around the existing filter to achieve this. We recently had this problem on a commercial brewery and supplied them with something called a Hop Dosing Unit. You could make one on a smaller scale. In a nutshell, don't put hops into the kettle, but in a separate unit. You circulate the wort through this - two units, the first circulated for the full hour with bittering hops and the second turned on for the last 15 mins or so for aroma hops. Should be easy enough to make if you're good at DIY. I've attached a picture to show you what it looks like on a big scale.
Attachments
IMG_2219.JPG

User avatar
dean_wales
Drunk as a Skunk
Posts: 991
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:13 pm
Location: Welshman exiled in Exeter!

Re: Kettle trub blocking filter

Post by dean_wales » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:50 pm

Woah nastyphoenix! That is a beast... Thanks evveryone for your input. Much appreciated and very helpful.

It's true that this is a really tricky problem. Always comes at the tired/late end of a brew evening too. As I brew outside I am also very wary of cool wort hanging around for long as I think I have picked up infections in the past. Frustrating when my mashtun with its perforated stainless false bottom for example is no hassle - piddles like a race horse!

For my next batch I am going for the following:
- I have just picked up a brass T fitting and more copper tube/mesh. That will more than double the size of the filter by having it going horizontally in both directions between the elements. I will post a photo soon.
- I am going to be even more careful to ensure the mash is recirculated and running clear before filling the kettle to avoid any flour/grain getting into the kettle.
- I will pre-sterilise the outlet tap, pump and hoses with Starsan and then only run it briefly at the start of the boil to heat treat it.
- I am going to stick with one Protofloc for 50/60 litres for now. I am really pleased with early clarity of the last batch compared to previous and the dosage seems to be in line with god practice.
- I am going to ensure most of the hops in the recipe are whole rather than pellet.
- I am not going to recirculate at the start of chilling as everything is hot and working well then. That will allow hops to settle more.
- When recirculating during the latter part of the chilling process and the temp drop slows, I am going to throttle the pump back and take it very easy whilst a filter bed forms over the filter.
- I am going to plan my brewday to ensure that I have enough time not to panic if run off is slow!

If that lot doesn't work I will think again.

Good plan??

Dean.
Click here for my cider pressing...
Click here to see my 20% Damson port experiment...
Click here for red wine from my allotment vine...

User avatar
Jocky
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2738
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:50 pm
Location: Epsom, Surrey, UK

Re: Kettle trub blocking filter

Post by Jocky » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:58 pm

The filtering problem is an issue we all have and there's no good solution for every situation (otherwise we'd all be doing it).

I had the slightly smaller version of orlando's filter and it was brilliant for leaf, but clogged rapidly with a modest amount of pellets.

I tried a few different things, and in the end I've gone to usually using pellets, and simply not filtering. As Fil does I just leave it all to settle after cooling for 30 minutes, and then run off from above the trub line. This gives me sparklingly clear wort. It can work well for leaf too as long as I let the leaf drop below the outlet. If I'm a really busy boy and can't wait I bag hops or use leaf hops and the brewbuilder filter.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

patwestlake
Steady Drinker
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:23 pm
Location: Penarth, South Wales

Re: Kettle trub blocking filter

Post by patwestlake » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:47 am

Another tactic is to use a hop spider. That way you can recirculate from the base back into the spider (sub surface to avoid hot side aeration/oxidation) and only require a guard filter at the base. Simples!

Pat
FV : #99 Highway to Helles (Munich Helles)
Next up - #100 Farmhouse in Your Soul (Saison)

Drinking :
#98 Bells Light Hearted (3.9% IPA)
#97 Decadence 64 (Mosaic IPA)
#96 Wicked Weasel (Fursty Ferret Clone)
#95 Penarth Gold (Loweswater Gold Clone)
#94 Cheeseburger Cavalry (US IPA)

Touchstone
Steady Drinker
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:35 am

Re: Kettle trub blocking filter

Post by Touchstone » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:35 pm

Buy a Grain Father !

Post Reply