TCP off flavour

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Oof

Re: TCP off flavour

Post by Oof » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:05 pm

[quote=MTW post_id=825414 time=1509981188 user_id=13804]
If it's developing slowly in bottles then I'm also going with infection.

Are we all happy that 666g of sugar solution was 'used with a wyeast smack pack' ? If that means what I think it means, it doesn't seem to be accepted best practice for the yeast. Nothing to do with the number 666 either! :D :twisted: :D
[/quote]

We took 666g of white table sugar, dissolved it in boiling water, cooled the sugary water and added the smack pack. Then the whole lot was added to the wort which had been cooled to 25°c. I guess that's one reason for the diabolical flavour that resulted...

Oof

Re: TCP off flavour

Post by Oof » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:06 pm

MTW wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:13 pm
If it's developing slowly in bottles then I'm also going with infection.

Are we all happy that 666g of sugar solution was 'used with a wyeast smack pack' ? If that means what I think it means, it doesn't seem to be accepted best practice for the yeast. Nothing to do with the number 666 either! :D :twisted: :D
We took 666g of white table sugar, dissolved it in boiling water, cooled the sugary water and added the smack pack. Then the whole lot was added to the wort which had been cooled to 25°c. I guess that's one reason for the diabolical flavour that resulted...

Oof

Re: TCP off flavour

Post by Oof » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:11 pm

FermentedCulture wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:59 pm
I read recently that fermentation of wort that is high in glucose leads to beer high in esters, particularly 'ethyl acetate which tastes like solvent'. Our first wort contained 666g of sugar solution (used with a yeast smack pack) which is high for our brew (usually no additioinal sugar at all). I wonder if this was the culprit rather than inefficient rinsing? It all got a bit technical at that point, but the combo of an unknown yeast/sugar solution and dumping another 60l of possibly glucose rich wort on top of the fermenting wort halfway through its exponential growth phase might have shocked some bad flavours out of it.
Allegedly double batching usually reduces esters: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Drauflassen
Just out of interest was the sugar solution dextrose/glucose or was it ordinary table sugar - sucrose? Also, what was your mashing regime and yeast choice?
It was ordinary table sugar. Mash regime was 5mins at 40, 15 at 50, 60 at 60, 10 at 72 and 1 at 78. yeast choice was Wyeast American Ale

Oof

Re: TCP off flavour

Post by Oof » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:12 pm

Thanks to everyone for your extremely helpful comments, btw.

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Eric
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Re: TCP off flavour

Post by Eric » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:24 pm

Brewer's yeast doesn't readily ferment sucrose, so has to provide the invertase necessary to convert it to glucose and fructose, but there will be no nutrition available to the yeast. It won't have a good start. How long was it before the yeast was pitched into wort and how soon was it before it was visibly active?
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Re: TCP off flavour

Post by MTW » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:36 pm

Eric wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:24 pm
Brewer's yeast doesn't readily ferment sucrose, so has to provide the invertase necessary to convert it to glucose and fructose, but there will be no nutrition available to the yeast. It won't have a good start. How long was it before the yeast was pitched into wort and how soon was it before it was visibly active?
This is why I was asking... If it didn't get a good start, failed to dominate the wort effectively, and made a TCP inducing infection more probable.
Busy in the Summer House Brewery

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Aleman
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Re: TCP off flavour

Post by Aleman » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:19 pm

The TCP reaction occurs when phenols from the malt combine with chlorine (From unrinsed sanitiser or water) ... it is NOT the same as ethyl acetate (pear drops). as I said earlier this is often quoted as the source of any TCP flavour in beer overlooking the inconvenient fact that pediococcus infections produce TCP as an off flavour. The vast majority of TCP 'spoiled' batches are the result of ped infgections. ... especially if it develops and gets stronger with time.

IF you made a yeast starter where the vast majority of the fermentables were simple sugars, then you could have got yourself into this situation, as the yeast switches off the enzymatic pathways to digest maltose. When you then add it to a predominantly maltose wort, it goes into hibernation mode until it can switch those pathways back on. this lag in fermentation could allow something like ped to take a hold. Then during the active fermentation phase the yeast out competes the ped for sugars, and in doing so will clean up the earlier by products of the fermentation in a high sugar wort. ... once the maltose is gone the yeast goes dormant, but the ped continues to chew away at anything it can sink it's teeth into ... TCP has a taste threshold in the parts per billion range so you are not necessarily talking about a glaringly obvious infection.

Disinfect everything cold side with heat preferably steam, alternatively use a mix of other non chlorine based disinfectants.

FermentedCulture

Re: TCP off flavour

Post by FermentedCulture » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:53 pm

The mash in at 40°C would have produced acids which are precursors for phenols. So while that yeast strain doesn't produce phenols the wort does provide the precursors for other wild microbiota to contaminate the beer. Have you used a phenol producing yeast in the same fermenting vessel (hefeweizen, witbier, saison, brettanomyces etc), cross contamination is another possibility.

I've read that sucrose generally tends to produce more higher alcohols compared to glucose and fructose.

[QUOTE]
We took 666g of white table sugar, dissolved it in boiling water, cooled the sugary water and added the smack pack. Then the whole lot was added to the wort which had been cooled to 25°c. I guess that's one reason for the diabolical flavour that resulted...
[/QUOTE]

Any idea of the brix/gravity of the sugar solution? If it was too high you might have hampered the viability and vitality.

FermentedCulture

Re: TCP off flavour

Post by FermentedCulture » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:48 pm

FermentedCulture wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:59 pm
Allegedly double batching usually reduces esters: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Drauflassen
I've found some data contrary to this, which says it increases esters, apparently especially if the wort which is added is not aerated (Brewing Yeast Fermentation Performance - Katherine Smart).

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Re: TCP off flavour

Post by greenwood » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:36 pm

I used to use chlorine/ Milton etc and I got tcp taint despite rinsing . Apparently some people are much more sensitive to this off flavour than others. I can even smell it ! I banned chlorine and boiled every drop of water . Cured! Since then I purchased inline water filters and don't preboil waters. 100 % effective. No TCP flavour ever despite heavy hop additions .


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