TCP off flavour

[Oof]

Hello all
Recently we tried a new method of adding wort (no yeast) to a previous batch of already fermenting wort to see if this would save yeast. The addition was made 2 days after the first batch went into the fermenter. Both batches were around 60 litres.
On bottling we noticed a very strong TCP flavour and smell emanating from the beer. Bad. Initially we put this down to poor rinsing of the sanitising solution but I read recently that fermentation of wort that is high in glucose leads to beer high in esters, particularly 'ethyl acetate which tastes like solvent'. Our first wort contained 666g of sugar solution (used with a yeast smack pack) which is high for our brew (usually no additioinal sugar at all). I wonder if this was the culprit rather than inefficient rinsing? It all got a bit technical at that point, but the combo of an unknown yeast/sugar solution and dumping another 60l of possibly glucose rich wort on top of the fermenting wort halfway through its exponential growth phase might have shocked some bad flavours out of it. Maybe.
Any thoughts or wise words appreciated (especially "Idiots, dint do that"etc)
Thanks
Oof

[Jocky]

TCP comes from one of a few places:

1. Chlorine in untreated water - use a crushed half a campden tablet in your water to remove this.

2. Chlorine from sanitising/cleaning products not being rinsed off.

3. Infection.

#1 doesn’t tend to be extreme, but it does depend upon your water supply.

What cleaning/sanitisation products are you using?

[Aleman]

Jockys right, although personally I would reverse the order. The biggest cause of TCP like flavours in beer is infection. The presence of chlorine just gets obsessed over (IMO)

[Jocky]

My list was in no particular order, but I agree with Aleman. I’ve tasted more TCP in beer through infection than anything else.

In particular if you don't get fermentation going well quickly low level infections can take over and have a significant flavour contribution.

[Oof]

Thanks for the replies. The sanitizer is a caustic one, can't remember the name. Pretty sure it's Chlorine based.

[MTW]

A guy I know used to santise with Milton and nearly every brew he did (I tasted many) had a strong TCP flavour. TCP being a very accurate reference. Eventually, he took our advice and switched to acid based sanitiser, rather than the chlorine of Milton. Not a single one I've tried since then has had any of that taste.

[Eric]

A guy I know used to santise with Milton and nearly every brew he did (I tasted many) had a strong TCP flavour. TCP being a very accurate reference. Eventually, he took our advice and switched to acid based sanitiser, rather than the chlorine of Milton. Not a single one I've tried since then has had any of that taste.

Then I suspect his TCP would not be from chlorine and may have been an infection. To quote the manufacturer..........

Sterilising Fluid
What is Milton Sterilising Fluid made of?

Milton Fluid is made of an aqueous solution of sodium hypochlorite and 16.5% sodium chloride. The Milton Fluid that is available to buy is a strength of 2% sodium hypochlorite.

I know there are better sanitisers, but since using chlorine based materials I've not suffered a single infection and have never experienced TCP off flavours. I'm about to change to acid based alternatives and I'm nervous.

Does Milton smell or taste like TCP? It take little to wash away any surplus.

[Kev888]

Hello all
Recently we tried a new method of adding wort (no yeast) to a previous batch of already fermenting wort to see if this would save yeast. The addition was made 2 days after the first batch went into the fermenter. Both batches were around 60 litres.
On bottling we noticed a very strong TCP flavour and smell emanating from the beer. Bad. Initially we put this down to poor rinsing of the sanitising solution but I read recently that fermentation of wort that is high in glucose leads to beer high in esters, particularly 'ethyl acetate which tastes like solvent'. Our first wort contained 666g of sugar solution (used with a yeast smack pack) which is high for our brew (usually no additioinal sugar at all). I wonder if this was the culprit rather than inefficient rinsing? It all got a bit technical at that point, but the combo of an unknown yeast/sugar solution and dumping another 60l of possibly glucose rich wort on top of the fermenting wort halfway through its exponential growth phase might have shocked some bad flavours out of it. Maybe.
Any thoughts or wise words appreciated (especially "Idiots, dint do that"etc)
Thanks
Oof

It isn't always easy to identify off-flavours & aromas, and people can sometimes worry about normal ones associated with the fermentation. But by most accounts TCP is a fairly clear one, and bottling is usually late enough in the process for normal fermentation by-products to have gone (or at least mellowed considerably). So I'd guess your initial perception of TCP flavour/aroma is likely correct.

As mentioned above, that can be related to infection or chlorine. Given that it follows a change in your cold-side procedure, it seems most likely to be an infection being introduced IMO. I can see why you may have tried this, but with each additional process to the cool wort you also introduce additional opportunity for infection to creep in. Was there anything less hygienic or enclosed about the additional batch, or the method of adding it - e.g. was the wort freshly boiled (& cooled) before adding?

It isn't impossible that a rinse of a bleach-cleaned vessel could have been overlooked, or for the water company to have increased the chlorine, so don't discount it completely. But on balance it seems less likely than infection.

[MTW]

A guy I know used to santise with Milton and nearly every brew he did (I tasted many) had a strong TCP flavour. TCP being a very accurate reference. Eventually, he took our advice and switched to acid based sanitiser, rather than the chlorine of Milton. Not a single one I've tried since then has had any of that taste.

Then I suspect his TCP would not be from chlorine and may have been an infection. To quote the manufacturer..........

Sterilising Fluid
What is Milton Sterilising Fluid made of?

Milton Fluid is made of an aqueous solution of sodium hypochlorite and 16.5% sodium chloride. The Milton Fluid that is available to buy is a strength of 2% sodium hypochlorite.

I know there are better sanitisers, but since using chlorine based materials I've not suffered a single infection and have never experienced TCP off flavours. I'm about to change to acid based alternatives and I'm nervous.

Does Milton smell or taste like TCP? It take little to wash away any surplus.

I totally see your point Eric. My friend's problem could yet have been infection, though it seems less likely to me. He used to pretty much leave his bottles in Milton.

On the last sentence, I thought it was a reaction of the brew with chlorine that (can) produce the TCP taste, rather than any pre existing TCP taste in the chlorine based sanitiser.

[Oof]

Thanks, Kev, in a way it's a relief that it might not be to do with bad rinsing as we've become obsessed with rinsing since then. The wort was treated in the usual way, boiled, cooled etc. It was then literally poured straight onto the already fermenting wort which in retrospect might not have been the best idea in the world. Coincidentally we've noticed another batch starting to show signs of TCP, only this time after a month in the bottle. Might be paranoia but something to keep an eye on.

[Eric]

A guy I know used to santise with Milton and nearly every brew he did (I tasted many) had a strong TCP flavour. TCP being a very accurate reference. Eventually, he took our advice and switched to acid based sanitiser, rather than the chlorine of Milton. Not a single one I've tried since then has had any of that taste.

Then I suspect his TCP would not be from chlorine and may have been an infection. To quote the manufacturer..........

Sterilising Fluid
What is Milton Sterilising Fluid made of?

Milton Fluid is made of an aqueous solution of sodium hypochlorite and 16.5% sodium chloride. The Milton Fluid that is available to buy is a strength of 2% sodium hypochlorite.

I know there are better sanitisers, but since using chlorine based materials I've not suffered a single infection and have never experienced TCP off flavours. I'm about to change to acid based alternatives and I'm nervous.

Does Milton smell or taste like TCP? It take little to wash away any surplus.

I totally see your point Eric. My friend's problem could yet have been infection, though it seems less likely to me. He used to pretty much leave his bottles in Milton.

On the last sentence, I thought it was a reaction of the brew with chlorine that (can) produce the TCP taste, rather than any pre existing TCP taste in the chlorine based sanitiser.

Yes, you are correct, but having used chlorine for years, only rarely with Campden or sod met, I do wonder why it is so often blamed for TCP.

My wife once suggested using Milton instead of VWP, or whatever it was. The resulting smell was more like a brine solution than VWP did that I rinsed everything out and reverted to my usual routine. From then I thought some brewing equipment needed to be more sanitised than bady's feeding bottles and teats.

I've also brewed with more sugar than the OP and also regularly add more fermentables during fermentation without problems.

I know it's time for me to move on with better sanitisers and after a recent rebuild it is no longer possible to continue with older methods, but fear I'll not cover every base without a problem as has been the case with chlorine.

[Kev888]

Thanks, Kev, in a way it's a relief that it might not be to do with bad rinsing as we've become obsessed with rinsing since then. The wort was treated in the usual way, boiled, cooled etc. It was then literally poured straight onto the already fermenting wort which in retrospect might not have been the best idea in the world. Coincidentally we've noticed another batch starting to show signs of TCP, only this time after a month in the bottle. Might be paranoia but something to keep an eye on.

It certainly does seem increasingly like an infection, if it is forming or getting worse over time; most fermentation by-products get better rather than worse.

If older bottles are starting to show signs then I would suspect a cause which was starting to occur 'before' the current suspicions around your wort additions. With that in mind, I would suggest not concentrating on that process alone, but rather being suspicious of 'everything' post-boil, especially hidden areas and usual suspects like CFCs/plate chillers, Fermenter valves and hoses etc.

It won't hurt to bung some sodium met (or campden) into the brewing liquor, but more to simply eliminate that as a possible cause than because it is a very likely one.

[MTW]

If it's developing slowly in bottles then I'm also going with infection.

Are we all happy that 666g of sugar solution was 'used with a wyeast smack pack' ? If that means what I think it means, it doesn't seem to be accepted best practice for the yeast. Nothing to do with the number 666 either!

[Eric]

If it's developing slowly in bottles then I'm also going with infection.

Are we all happy that 666g of sugar solution was 'used with a wyeast smack pack' ? If that means what I think it means, it doesn't seem to be accepted best practice for the yeast. Nothing to do with the number 666 either!

Yes, I've probably misread that, thinking the sugar was added to the wort while it might have been the yeast added to 666g of a sugar solution. Unless the sugar solution was insanitary, I know of no reason why this would cause TCP, but it's not something I've done. Today I made 3/4 litre for a yeast starter and as is my practise, included some invert sugar in the mix.

My latest 45 litre brew was split to use 2 yeasts with half a kg of invert added to each on the third day. They are both drinking now and are clean, Both FVs and casks, hydrometer, trial jar etc sanitised using bleach and rinsed with tapwater. No Campden or sod met used, so I do now wonder about that sugar.

[FermentedCulture]

[quote]
I read recently that fermentation of wort that is high in glucose leads to beer high in esters, particularly 'ethyl acetate which tastes like solvent'. Our first wort contained 666g of sugar solution (used with a yeast smack pack) which is high for our brew (usually no additioinal sugar at all). I wonder if this was the culprit rather than inefficient rinsing? It all got a bit technical at that point, but the combo of an unknown yeast/sugar solution and dumping another 60l of possibly glucose rich wort on top of the fermenting wort halfway through its exponential growth phase might have shocked some bad flavours out of it.
[/quote]

Allegedly double batching usually reduces esters: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Drauflassen

Just out of interest was the sugar solution dextrose/glucose or was it ordinary table sugar - sucrose? Also, what was your mashing regime and yeast choice?