First All Grain, issues and advice please

[Boardmanphil]

Hi there,

This is my first post so please bear with me...

I've been extract brewing for around 15 years and decided it's well over due for me to take the plunge into 'all grain'.

So I've made myself a mash tun, from two FV's one with a tap and the other inserted inside it with a shed load of 2mm holes drilled in to act as a sort sieve/mash. Then insulated with kingspan/celotex type stuff, wrapped the whole thing up in an emergency blanket (the sort of thing they give to marathon runners) and neatly Duck taped it all up.

Now on Saturday I took the plunge and made my first 'all grain' brew. All was going well. The homemade mash tun held its temp for 90mins @ 66oC without loosing a oC. I was well chuffed with my creation!!! Up until it came to sparging. I attempted to batch sparge. basically the mash 'stuck' and the only way I could get the liquid through was to continually stir the grains while the mash slowly trickled out after about 70mins I had collected the 27l I needed for the boil. GREAT!!

Finally I moved on the boiling the wort, but my boiler kept cutting out when it reached 70oC so was unable to boil. My only option was to boil a small amount of wort in the biggest pan I own (only 6l) and use that for my for my hop schedule. I also added half my protofloc dose to the pan and the other half to the boiler which was still holding around 70oC.

I then mixed both liquors together, cooled and took the OG, which was around 1064 (instead of the 1054 suggested in the recipe) I added the yeast and went to bed exhausted, having started my brew day at 2.30 and finishing at 10.30 after all the dramas!!

Now Sunday evening and morning it was fermenting nicely but this evening it all seems to have nearly come to halt already.

I guess I'm looking for any comments as to why people might think the gravity was so high?

Would stiring the grains for so long have caused any potential issues?

Would the strange boiling methods cause and potential issues?

And why would the fermentation have almost stopped after 48hrs? Also I checked the gravity tonight, it was around 1045ish no where near the target.

My apologies for such a long winded post, but thought it was best to give all the info I could.

Many thanks in advance for any advice given

Phil

[Boardmanphil]

There also seems a hell of a lot of sediment, but this could be normal for all grain compared with extract? I was wondering if that could effect the fermentation?


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[vacant]

I attempted to batch sparge. basically the mash 'stuck' and the only way I could get the liquid through was to continually stir the grains while the mash slowly trickled out after about 70mins I had collected the 27l I needed for the boil. GREAT!!

I used to love experimenting with different mash tuns and filters but I started all grain by BIAB - no mash tun, instead draping a net curtain over the sides of the boiler, patting it down and filling with grain. When I built my first mash tun I didn't need to worry about a stuck mash from a failed design as I'd lay the curtain into my boiler and empty the wort/mash into it, then gather the edges of the curtain and yank it out. So steal a net curtain and continue experimenting!

You could make a lot more 2mm holes. You could make huge holes in the base and wedge/bolt in some stainless mesh. A cheap source of quality mesh is a £3 Ikea splatter guard. Read about using that mesh in my one-pot system here.

[gobuchul]

Now Sunday evening and morning it was fermenting nicely but this evening it all seems to have nearly come to halt already.

How do you monitor fermentation?

I find that my AG, will kick off quite strongly for the first 48 - 72hrs, build a thick Krausen and then drops off. I tend to leave for about a week before kegging, I don't bottle so I'm not too worried going early, particularly if it's a light English ale, through the beer engine.

I wouldn't worry about the sediment, it will drop out in the FV, you might not get perfectly clear beer but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the beer. I think that because we are so used to pasteurised and filtered beer, we expect it be completely clear.

I would have a look at the design of your mash tun and that sounds a complete pain in the arse. I had a look of success with an ice box type mash tun, it might cost you £50 to buy one but you always be able to sell it on for £30, if you manage to perfect your own design?

I'm not sure what will happen, regarding not reaching a full boil? I guess if you were pretty close to 80C for longer enough, then you may have sterilised it. Keep an eye on it and don't write it off. Try a bit of dry hopping possibly?

Beers more robust than people sometimes think, you will probably end up with something better than your kit and extract brews. Good luck.

[Boardmanphil]

Thank you both for you reply’s. I’m going to check on the brew tonight to see if the gravity has changed at all, if not I might give the yeast a stir off the bottom to see if that gets it going at all. I’ve also raised the temp a little as it was around 18oC last night. Might try putting more holes in to see if that helps if not the mesh idea sound good. I’ll keep you posted. These are a couple of pictures of the tun and current quantity of holes. [IMG]//uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201712 ... a546a0.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]//uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201712 ... dc8b6c.jpg[/IMG][IMG]//uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201712 ... b73fbe.jpg[/IMG]


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[Kev888]

The run off from the mash tun can often be improved by draining it slowly (especially to start with) so that the grain bed doesn't get sucked down too hard. But unless you had a lot of awkward sticky adjuncs like corn, then I'd guess that ultimately your inner FV probably had too few holes in; it may seem like a lot if you drilled them manually but the 'open area' may be too low, especially once the grains block some of the holes.

For example, a commonly used material for a false bottom is 2mm perforated stainless, which as you can see is pretty open - from memory about 30%.

Or else a manifold of pipes with lots of slots sawn in them - which probably isn't as open, but still works well because slots are less easily blocked with round grains. As mentioned, some people also use bags or mesh baskets. You do need to stir with batch sparging in order to mix each batch, but excessive stirring (as you needed to do) can be a double-edged sword - it can unblock the holes there and then but also tends to liberate more fine material from the grain, which can increase subsequent clogging (and cause more particles to get into the boil).

The boiler not boiling may be more of a problem. There are various important things that the boil does, but a key one is that the grain and consequently the pre-boil wort is not (at all) sterile, and the boil solves that. If much of your wort was only brought to 70c then it may well have numerous things competing with the yeast for the worty sugars; infection seems quite likely, unfortunately. A fermentation 'can' be mostly done in 48hrs in rare cases, particularly if a lot of yeast were pitched and if it were fermented very (too) warm, but it is unusual so could indicate something is awry.

As to why the boiler kept cutting out, if this is a new build then some thermostat or over-sensitive boil-dry (over-heat) cutout may be limiting it. But it the boiler has worked previously, it may be because lots of particles in your wort became stuck to the elements, causing them to get hotter than normal and so more legitimately causing a cut-out to actuate. Unless your process is good you may get more particles in pre-boil wort from all-grain than from extract, so safety cut-outs can be more of a problem, but in your case it sounds like you may have had an excess of particles though.

The higher gravity may be due to several things. The recipe you used may have assumed a lower mash efficiency than you actually got, or you may have brewed to a smaller volume, or the measurements may have been inaccurate or at the wrong temperature. In some cases evaporation during the boil can concentrate the wort more too, but that seems unlikely here unless it was gently steaming for a very long time. Once your setup is working sufficiently it will be important to measure your volumes and gravities at each stage in order to be able to predict what efficiency and losses to expect.

Don't lose heart, even for more experienced grain brewers things may not work entirely as predicted on the first brew with a new setup. In this case you may need to alter the MT filter, but the only real show-stopper sounds like it was the lack of boil.

[Boardmanphil]

Hi Kev,

Thank you for your extremely detailed and informative response!

That is a mistake I definitely did make regarding the run off, it wasn't until later I realised that I had just whacked the tap open full. So my next attempt will definitely running off with more care and adding more holes (or purchasing a splatter screen as mentioned above).

I also think that the excess stirring had caused the mesh to block and also wouldn't surprise me if that was the cause of my boiler cutting out, as I've used it many times before. It also boiled a small amount off water just fine, when I tested it later.

Regarding infection, I've just tasted my fermenting beer and it actually tastes quite good, albeit a little sweet, which is to be expected after only a couple of days. Also it does seem like it's still fermenting as I think the gravity has dropped slightly from yesterday. I just think I got scared because of all the problems I had throughout brew day. That on top of the strange fermenting pattern I hadn't experienced before.

I'll let you know how it goes....

[Kev888]

Sounds promising!

When you have the mash tun running off more freely, you can help to avoid bits in the wort by recirculating the initial run-off (of each batch) to the top of the grain bed until the wort runs more clearly, and only then running off to the kettle. In the absence of a pump, this may simply involve a vorlauf using a jug to collect and return the first few/several litres until it runs clearer. TBH that is easier with fly/continuous sparging - since less stirring is involved and there is only the one run-off to clear - but it will improve batch sparging too.

There may still be cloudier wort than you are used to with extract though, so maybe some backup plan would be wise for the next boil. Or even preemptive bypassing of the cut-out - though particularly if the cut-out in question is a safety one, then doing so is at your own risk and all that. If it is just a temperature control or simmerstat such as found on tea urns, these usually have to be bypassed as they are generally intended to prevent strong hot boils, which is counter to your requirements in this case.

[Boardmanphil]

Yeah I did read about bypassing the thermostat. My boiler is the plastic brupaks one and this seems to be a common problem. Opened it up the other day and bypassing looks quite easy enough. Project for the weekend drill more holes, maybe add a splatter guard type mesh and bypass thermostat on my boiler. Oh and pray to the beer gods my batch of chocolate milk stout is ok and think about kegging it!!


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[gr_baker]

I started out in all grain with exactly the set up that you've described. I found the same problems with the boiler and it was never completely satisfactory. The plastic used soften when the wort was boiling and the thermostat fell off exposing the 240v feed. It was eventually replaced with a Brupaks steel boiler with a flat, integrated element which worked flawlessly for years. I also replaced the mash tun with one of the adapted picnic box type mash tuns. Both worked really well for years only being replaced recently with a Grainfather, which whilst convenient, doesn't actually work as well as the Brupaks boiler and mash tun.

Russell

[Boardmanphil]

I was thinking of buying a converted (or convert myself) cool box. But to be honest it’s a bit out of my budget at the moment. Plus I like the idea of being as thrifty as possible and making something practical from practically nothing. :)

Having said that there will come a day when I want to spend money on the best equipment available. Just not quite there as yet.


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[Fil]

a net (grain) bag in your tun may help with drainage issues not sorted with a gradual drain valve opening.

imho it takes a couple of brews to become comfortable with the various steps and stages and not be panicked by the prospect of forgetting something, or thrown by a slight error. But once your in the swing of things you will become very aware of all the 'features' of your basic brewery and will be in the best position to judge what if any investments you cam make will have the best/biggest impact on the day.

your #1 brew may not clear as well as you may hope due to the lack of a boil to achieve hot and cold breaks but the simplest cure for that is to simply quaff from an opaque vessel

#1 priority would be to sort out the boiler, sounds like you still have some temp limiting bits in there, should be easy enough to bypass or pull, immersion style elements generally have one terminal of the element fed via the temp limiting (NC thermal switch) and usually simply connecting your mains feed to the element terminal directly will bypass the protection.

if in doubt pause and post pics..

[Boardmanphil]

Thanks Fil,

I think you're right regarding getting used to equipment etc. I'm quite confident that my next brew day is going to go a lot better than the last, thanks to all the advise I've received above and serious mulling over of my own.

It real crappy weather here today in sunny Dartmoor (reaching 50+mph winds) so I recon I could be taking my boiler apart and attempting the bypass or like you say inserting the main directly into the element, just need to buy a kettle lead first

[Boardmanphil]

Another question I have, is that there must be at least 2" of sediment at the bottom of my FV, which I guess would mean I have lost about 2lt or so of beer. Could this be the reason why my OG was so high? I'm going to transfer to secondary fermenter today to help clear before I bottle, Would it do any harm to top up up the beer by a couple of litres at this point?

[Mashman]

It would be fine to top it up, I would use bottled spring water. You don't need to transfer to a secondary, just give it a bit more time to clear.