Mash efficiency calculators and dark grain bills

Get advice on making beer from raw ingredients (malt, hops, water and yeast)
Post Reply
Tomp
Steady Drinker
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 8:01 pm

Mash efficiency calculators and dark grain bills

Post by Tomp » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:55 pm

I've been looking at mash efficiency calculators and think they are deeply flawed for dark beers.

As I understand it, the mash efficiency is calculated by the amount of wort you extracted, the grain-bill and the gravity.

As darker malts have lower extractable levels, surely the mash will show lower efficiency for these. Am I correct?

If so, ya boo sucks....... Anyone know of a calculator that compensates for this as I brew mainly dark beers?
It started with kits to save money and now look........!!!

Lots of kit, too many ingredients and not enough time, but a patient wife.... who loves my beer...........

Could be worse :-)

TheSumOfAllBeers
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 677
Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 11:21 am

Re: Mash efficiency calculators and dark grain bills

Post by TheSumOfAllBeers » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:31 pm

An efficiency calculation is an expression of total extractable sugars versus actually extracted sugars.

Most software handles this if it's malt listing is up to date.

If my pale malt is 37 ppg and my brown malt is 27 ppg then I will have less total sugars, and lower ÓG than a beer made with all pale malt.

Your efficiency is likely to be the same, but you started with less sugar so you end up with less.

It's not an efficiency issue - dark malts are not inherently more difficult to extract from.

User avatar
Kev888
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7701
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:22 pm
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: Mash efficiency calculators and dark grain bills

Post by Kev888 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:22 pm

Tomp wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:55 pm
As darker malts have lower extractable levels, surely the mash will show lower efficiency for these. Am I correct?
No, there are two separate elements involved here: the potential extract of the grain being used and then your own efficiency in extracting it. It is (as you have identified) the grain's potential which is the key difference, but the mash efficiency doesn't change much:

Even different pale malts have different extract potential, not just the darker kinds. Assuming you use the extract potential for the grains involved, then it will automatically account for what they have to offer (including the darker ones having less potential).

Your own efficiency is then a percentage of (and so relative to) the potential extract of the grain. So as an example, if there is a pale malt capable of giving 300 points per kg in one litre, and a darker grain which offers 200 points per kg in one litre, and say you get 50% mash efficiency then you will extract 150 points from the pale malt and 100 points from the darker grain, in one litre. So you can see that as the potential for the two different grains is specified, the same mash efficiency automatically gives different results for them.

If you rely on software to do this for you, then you can normally tell it the potential extract figures for your grain and it will work things out accordingly. However if you don't, then a lot of the better software will still try - by using generic ball-parks for the grain in the recipe. It won't be as accurate and the efficiency figures it generates won't really be yours, but it will still be a rough approximation. If your software can't respond to grains of different potential extract, either by guessing or by being told, then I'd be rather doubtful of it.
Kev

Tomp
Steady Drinker
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 8:01 pm

Re: Mash efficiency calculators and dark grain bills

Post by Tomp » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:34 pm

Ive used a few of the online ones and the GF version that comes with the APP and it takes no account of the types of grains. Hence lower efficiency for darker grains.
It started with kits to save money and now look........!!!

Lots of kit, too many ingredients and not enough time, but a patient wife.... who loves my beer...........

Could be worse :-)

TheSumOfAllBeers
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 677
Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 11:21 am

Re: Mash efficiency calculators and dark grain bills

Post by TheSumOfAllBeers » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:47 pm

Tomp wrote:Ive used a few of the online ones and the GF version that comes with the APP and it takes no account of the types of grains. Hence lower efficiency for darker grains.
It may let you enter in your own values for extract potential (usually ppg or points/kg/L)

If the SW can't deal with something that basic what's the point of it?

Tomp
Steady Drinker
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 8:01 pm

Re: Mash efficiency calculators and dark grain bills

Post by Tomp » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:05 pm

TheSumOfAllBeers wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:47 pm
Tomp wrote:Ive used a few of the online ones and the GF version that comes with the APP and it takes no account of the types of grains. Hence lower efficiency for darker grains.
It may let you enter in your own values for extract potential (usually ppg or points/kg/L)

If the SW can't deal with something that basic what's the point of it?
Agreed.

I was using BeerSmith but it doesn’t seem to work too well with the GF volumes - no matter how much I tweak it. Looks like there isn’t one tool out there that does the whole job.
It started with kits to save money and now look........!!!

Lots of kit, too many ingredients and not enough time, but a patient wife.... who loves my beer...........

Could be worse :-)

TheSumOfAllBeers
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 677
Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 11:21 am

Re: Mash efficiency calculators and dark grain bills

Post by TheSumOfAllBeers » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:43 pm

There's a level of SW faff that I am not prepared to deal with or workaround - I tend to take control of all my measurements until they are accurate enough for me. It does means splitting between a lot of SW tools.

guypettigrew
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2626
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:10 pm
Location: Christchurch, Dorset

Re: Mash efficiency calculators and dark grain bills

Post by guypettigrew » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:08 pm

Graham Wheeler's beer engine seems to do what you want.

I've just plugged in 5kg of black malt at an overall brewhouse efficiency of 80% for 24 litres. It would give you a gravity of 1.044.

Then I plugged in 5kg of pale malt, 80% efficiency, 24 litres. Gravity of 1.050.

I'm probably missing something here (I usually do!), but this bit of software seems to recognise different malts give different results.

Plus, and again I'm probably missing the point, dark malts don't need mashing to extract the sugars. Just a good soak to get them out.

Errm--should I just shut up now before I demonstrate my total lack of knowledge even more?

Guy

TheSumOfAllBeers
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 677
Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 11:21 am

Re: Mash efficiency calculators and dark grain bills

Post by TheSumOfAllBeers » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:05 pm

Recognising that different malts have different extract potential is IMO a fundamental part of recipe SW.

User avatar
orlando
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7197
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: Mash efficiency calculators and dark grain bills

Post by orlando » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:48 pm

It's not just the extract potential to consider, you also need to know if it is fermentable. Black malt extract isn't, obviously it isn't diastatic either.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

User avatar
Kev888
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7701
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:22 pm
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: Mash efficiency calculators and dark grain bills

Post by Kev888 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:30 pm

TBH I don't use a wide range of software. But is it really true that so little is able to account for potential extract of the grain and grainfather-type volumes?

These are so normal and fundamental parameters, for almost any brew in almost any system, that it seems incredible to hear that most programmes or calculators do not offer the capability.
Kev

Tomp
Steady Drinker
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 8:01 pm

Re: Mash efficiency calculators and dark grain bills

Post by Tomp » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:13 pm

Kev888 wrote:TBH I don't use a wide range of software. But is it really true that so little is able to account for potential extract of the grain and grainfather-type volumes?

These are so normal and fundamental parameters, for almost any brew in almost any system, that it seems incredible to hear that most programmes or calculators do not offer the capability.
TBH I only use the calculators etc for recording a brew session, but it is sad. As an example, the GF calculator app calculates mash efficiency based on volume of preboil wort, weight of grain and gravity. For a dark beer the mash efficiency is always low but for lighter beers spot on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It started with kits to save money and now look........!!!

Lots of kit, too many ingredients and not enough time, but a patient wife.... who loves my beer...........

Could be worse :-)

jaroporter
Drunk as a Skunk
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:12 pm
Location: Garden of England

Re: Mash efficiency calculators and dark grain bills

Post by jaroporter » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:38 pm

surely the answer here is to just use one of the many(most) calculators that account for this?

of course the calculator will only be accurate to whatever extract potential it was programmed with at that time, but all i've used are consistantly in the ballpark (close enough for me) and many offer custom options anyway. it's kinda down to you to get the extract potential for the batch from the malt supplier if it's that critical.
dazzled, doused in gin..

simon12
Hollow Legs
Posts: 445
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:58 pm

Re: Mash efficiency calculators and dark grain bills

Post by simon12 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:03 pm

Does this link ehlp understand what values beer smith uses http://beersmith.com/Grains/Grains/GrainList.htm

Post Reply