Recipe tweak advice please

Get advice on making beer from raw ingredients (malt, hops, water and yeast)
MTW
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Recipe tweak advice please

Post by MTW » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:23 pm

I've got a base recipe working pretty well for what would probably be classified at the pale end of an ESB, or just a bit over, as I've made it at 1.064. I have some pale chocolate malt in stock to take it from it's current 7 SRM to something a bit darker, just for variety, but I'm still wanting more of a bitter than into porter territory.

Hop wise, I've been using a combo of Perle and EKG, but I'd like to drop one or both and maybe try a different pair. Still looking for something earthy/herbal, rather than any citrus.

Any recommendations for a good hop combo, and just how far to go with the pale chocolate? Cheers

Current recipe:
83% Pale
7% Caramalt
7% Munich II
3% Wheat Malt
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wolfenrook
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Re: Recipe tweak advice please

Post by wolfenrook » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:39 pm

How about fuggles? No citrus there apparently, British Hops Association describes them as minty, earthy, floral. I have some that I'm going to be using in a SMASH clone of a local beer (the original is supposedly a SMASH, but with sugar added too).

MTW
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Re: Recipe tweak advice please

Post by MTW » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:58 pm

wolfenrook wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:39 pm
How about fuggles? No citrus there apparently, British Hops Association describes them as minty, earthy, floral. I have some that I'm going to be using in a SMASH clone of a local beer (the original is supposedly a SMASH, but with sugar added too).
Well I was considering Progress, which I read were intended to be a more robust crop replacement for Fuggles. I'm ashamed to say that my ventures in English hops haven't gone much further than EKG, Fuggles and Challenger, other than one brew with Jester, though I'm not looking for anything attempting to be fruity or New Worldy here. So any reviews on Progress would be good. Open to ideas and combos.

BTW... As for the grain bill, I'm looking for advice on how much pale chocolate %age may be needed in the recipe above, just to add some darker 'warmth' and rounded character to the taste, without going roasty.
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wolfenrook
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Re: Recipe tweak advice please

Post by wolfenrook » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:21 pm

Heh that's further than I have gotten, I usually avoid British hops like the plague... Only really used US, NZ and euro hops to date as I really like these. I bought the fuggles as my wife specifically asked me to try to clone Holden's Golden Glow, which when I researched it is basically a fuggles/Maris Otter smash with some sugar added. :lol:

I have zero experience with chocolate malts either to be honest. I did however find that Crystal 130 gave me a nice amber shade (supposedly EBC 14.7 according to my recipe calculator) when used at 8% of the bill. This is the darkest AG I've made so far though. That won't give you the flavour you are looking for though. I know what you mean about roasty though. I've had 2 porters in the last few weeks. One was a coffee porter, which was delicious as they used actual coffee rather than relying on the malt alone. The other was "just a porter" with coffee notes entirely from the malt, and had too much bitterness that was obviously from the malt, and was not that pleasant.

TheSumOfAllBeers
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Re: Recipe tweak advice please

Post by TheSumOfAllBeers » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:25 pm

Try extra dark crystal instead of chocolate for your colour. Will add some complex malt character and no roast.

For hops, consider WGV or First Gold

wolfenrook
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Re: Recipe tweak advice please

Post by wolfenrook » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:30 pm

If he doesn't want citrus, surely first gold would be a no? All the profiles I can find list citrus in the aroma?

TheSumOfAllBeers
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Re: Recipe tweak advice please

Post by TheSumOfAllBeers » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:03 pm

It's more subdued and on the orange end of the citrus spectrum, which works well in bitter styles.

RobP

Re: Recipe tweak advice please

Post by RobP » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:14 pm

Believe it or not, Pilgrim & Progress go together really well. Admiral as bittering and First Gold and/or Bramling Cross as later additions are good. Target are interesting as a dry hop and are nice as a bittering hop as long as the use is restrained. Pale chocolate works in a bitter, 2-3% shouldn't be too roasty.

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Re: Recipe tweak advice please

Post by wolfenrook » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:01 pm

TheSumOfAllBeers wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:03 pm
It's more subdued and on the orange end of the citrus spectrum, which works well in bitter styles.
Ahh right, fair enough then. As I mentioned, I'm not really familiar with British hop varieties as I tend to prefer US/ NZ and EU ones. I think it's the "earthy" bit that usually puts me off, as in I can't stand bitter style (bitter as in AIPA yes, but not as in Banks's etc). I've probably had them in a stout or porter though, and just don't know it. :lol:

Sounds nice though, will maybe give them a try one day. :wink:

McMullan

Re: Recipe tweak advice please

Post by McMullan » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:43 pm

wolfenrook wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:01 pm

I'm not really familiar with British hop varieties as I tend to prefer US/ NZ and EU ones.
Begs the question why you'd offer advise on hops for a classic English ESB =D> What are 'EU' hops by the way? :D

wolfenrook
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Re: Recipe tweak advice please

Post by wolfenrook » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:01 pm

McMullan wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:43 pm
Begs the question why you'd offer advise on hops for a classic English ESB =D> What are 'EU' hops by the way? :D
Bit rude don't you think? Fuggles happens to be one of the few varieties I am reasonably familiar with, been one of the main hops used by at least one brewery in the area where I live. I happen to know that it has an aroma described as earthy and herbal, and these are exactly what MTW asked for. Have a look around, and you will find Fuggles in a LOT of traditional recipes.

So my turn, why exactly is your only post in this thread one challenging why I offered a suggestion? You've literally offered not suggestions or advice yourself here?

As to "EU" hopes, by this I am referring to hops from mainland Europe, including Saaz and Hallertau. I tend to prefer beers from mainland Europe and/or American styles, to a lot of British beers. There are some exceptions (porters, stouts, good mild).

MTW
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Re: Recipe tweak advice please

Post by MTW » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:21 pm

RobP wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:14 pm
Believe it or not, Pilgrim & Progress go together really well. Admiral as bittering and First Gold and/or Bramling Cross as later additions are good. Target are interesting as a dry hop and are nice as a bittering hop as long as the use is restrained. Pale chocolate works in a bitter, 2-3% shouldn't be too roasty.
Boom! I'm grateful for all the suggestions, but the Pilgrim and Progress combo tickles my fancy. Progress was on the radar, but reading about some challenger-characteristics in Pilgrim, I reckon that could be good in this darker version I'm doing. Some nice 2017 Stocks Farm leaves available for the Pilgrim, then some Progress leaf, and pellets for a modest dry hop. I'm looking for subtleties and balance, but a few new flavours in there too. Cheers.

3% Pale Choc should get me to around 13-14 SRM, says my software, which is certainly in the zone; hopefully not too roasty then.

I will try the dark crystal another time. It's a taste I know quite well, and can be cloying, though a small bit would be interesting another time.
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TheSumOfAllBeers
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Re: Recipe tweak advice please

Post by TheSumOfAllBeers » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:29 pm

It's worth getting a sense of what English hops bring to a beer from an excellent English ale - less showy - you can't pick out signature notes

jaroporter
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Re: Recipe tweak advice please

Post by jaroporter » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:52 am

did i miss what yeast you use? that's pretty vital to give advice on the recipe. i've found some to really emphasise a smooth, almost milk chocolate character in pale chocolate malt to a point where even a tiny bit was really out of place in a bitter (for my tastes anyways, so i've usually used regular chocolate malt which is drier/nutty rather than chocolatey). is it really just colour you are looking for or some flavour contribution too?

as for hops, progress is my favourite so i'll encourage that idea! got a really distinctive earthy/spicy flavour that works fantastic on it's own but also pairs well with challenger. alternatively with a tiny bit of bramling cross (a hop i used to hate but now really like when carefully applied!)
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MTW
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Re: Recipe tweak advice please

Post by MTW » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:53 am

jaroporter wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:52 am
did i miss what yeast you use? that's pretty vital to give advice on the recipe. i've found some to really emphasise a smooth, almost milk chocolate character in pale chocolate malt to a point where even a tiny bit was really out of place in a bitter (for my tastes anyways, so i've usually used regular chocolate malt which is drier/nutty rather than chocolatey). is it really just colour you are looking for or some flavour contribution too?

as for hops, progress is my favourite so i'll encourage that idea! got a really distinctive earthy/spicy flavour that works fantastic on it's own but also pairs well with challenger. alternatively with a tiny bit of bramling cross (a hop i used to hate but now really like when carefully applied!)
WLP007. I'm a BIG fan of it, and it seems to produce superb English ales and NEIPAs alike, at least at the cool end. Leaves a nice mouthfeel, not tart like Nottingham or US05 for example
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