Mash pH woes and questions

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Mash pH woes and questions

Post by timtoos » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:11 am

I did a beer today, Galaxy Delight by Dennis King.

The grist was:
Marris otter (6.0 EBC): 4.6kg
Light Maris otter (3.0 EBC): 0.35kg
Vienna (9.0 EBC): 0.3kg
Aromatic (50 EBC): 0.1kg

I brew on a Braumeister 20L set up so mashed in with 30L treated water (Gypsum, calcium chloride and Epsom salts).
I ran my water details (my water is very soft water, RO like) through Bru’n water and with the appropriate salt additions I expected a mash pH of 5.37.
I use an Extech ph110 meter for pH measurement and up to now it’s not too bad. Anyway on this brew day my mash recorded a pH of 5.70 – 5.75. The meter had been calibrated with buffers at the correct temperature of 25C. The mash sample was at 20C so all the temperatures were what I was looking for.

I let the brew go as previous attempts many moons ago to correct ended in disaster.

I am on spring water so I guess I cannot guarantee my water profile 100% all of the time. I have had the water properly analysed, but my point before, this may change. I check the TDS on every brew day and on this day it was what I would normally expect.

Do you guys have any advice? What do you think I will expect from this brew? A mess fit for the drain?

Should the brewing salts be added into the mash water? Added to the grist? Or added into hot water, dissolved as best and then added to the mash water?

TIA

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Re: Mash pH woes and questions

Post by orlando » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:09 am

Until we know what your starting water is it's very dificult to pin point where you may have gone wrong. Your water is RO like you say (spring water), RO like water suggests there was pretty much bugger all in it, but what? Brun'water is encouraging you to throw in salts but again we don't know how much or why. You ask whether the salts should be added to mash water etc, ditto. The fact that you finished with such a high mash pH suggests there is a lot more alkalinity in your water than you suggest. A little more information and we might be able to help.

You ask what to expect from a high mash pH? At pH 5.7 it may be less than you might think. Theoretically your mash will potentially extract more tannins from the grain, leading to a more astringent beer. This could get worse during the sparge as the pH rises further, particularly if it goes over pH 6. You may also experience poorer attenuation as higher pH can interfere with how the mash enzymes perform. You will still make beer and it might not be as bad as you fear. Certainly not for the drain, just not optimal.
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Re: Mash pH woes and questions

Post by Eric » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:31 am

Predicting mash pH is quite subjective and while very simple calculations determine mineral content of your liquor (provided it has been analysed) each and every malt will rarely be exactly as the median used for its specification, so your experience is not altogether unexpected. To be honest pH 5.7 is a lot better starting point than many homebrewers will manage and the beer shouldn't be dreadful, just that you know you can and will make better.

If you use Bru'nwater, have soft water and avoid it going red you will use less mineral content than has been the norm in Britain. Such mineral levels will frequently require an acid additions in order to get a suitably low mash pH and frequently takes the liquor's pH beyond the accepted end point of alkalinity.

Can I suggest you make a comparison using Graham's water calculator? It is found on this site here. It will not predict pH, just likely produce a more suitable one.
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Re: Mash pH woes and questions

Post by Onthebrew » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:27 pm

For what its worth i brew with a BM but mash in with 23 litres.

For that grain bill, 8g of gypsum and 2 g of CC would get me to a mash PH around 5.3. i have given up using brewers friend mash ph predictor as its always way out. I now just go by experience. I use tescos ashbec.

Out of interest do you hit your numbers with 30 litres. i start with 23 and top up with 4 litres to hit my numbers, any more water than that i under hit gravity.

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Re: Mash pH woes and questions

Post by timtoos » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:01 pm

Hi all, thanks for your help and feedback.

Orlando, I have had my water tested but like we have both said, with me pulling from a spring I cannot guarantee the water profile 100% of the time.
I had my water tested last year and to press, using Bru'n water, I have hit my numbers.

My water profile (last tested is this):
Screen Shot 2018-02-05 at 17.36.21.png
Here is my salt additions:
Screen Shot 2018-02-05 at 17.52.18.png
Eric, thanks for the link. I will have a look at it and compare. I really like Bru'n water thats all (and so far its predicted pretty well!). I usually add lactic acid together with gypsum etc. I try to stay clear of adding alklines and acids together, usually omitting one and reducing the other - hence in this brew. TBH, this is the first brew where I have not used lactic at all but Bru'n water said everything looked ok.

Onthebrew, I get my malts from MM and work with a efficiency of 67% (I get 70% form B.UK). I try to typically get 23L into the FV (yesterday I achieved 23.5L so pleased with that. I mashed in with 30L and sparged with 6.7L. That was with 5.35kg of malt. I hit my target OG of 1.049, verified with hydrometer, tilt and digital refractometer.

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Re: Mash pH woes and questions

Post by killer » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:07 pm

5.7 isn't that bad. Remember that you are brewing with a Braumeister so that your liquor to grain ration is higher than a typical 3 vessel ratio. (more liquor = more alkalinity for the same quantity of grain) which will push the mash pH upwards. Even with 100 ppm Calcium and alkalinity around 25 I hit about pH 5.5 for a recipe similar to the one you mention. I tend to drop to 5/ 10 ppm CaCO3 with 100 ppm Calcium to drop to 5.3. In my case my liquor is usually around 5.3 and doesn't much change during the mash.

I'd suggest (if you don't have one already) buying a salifert kit - it will allow you to control your alkalinity - even it's already low.

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Re: Mash pH woes and questions

Post by orlando » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:26 am

So how much calcium do you end up with? Why do you use Lactic rather than sulphuric and hydrochloric acid? I find it quite useful to use the latter as you have the twin benefit of reducing alkalinity and adjusting sulphate and or chloride.
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Re: Mash pH woes and questions

Post by IPA » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:19 am

It seems you must be doing something wrong. I get my grain from the MM and I use Graham's water calculator. My average efficiency is 84%. I add all the water treatment to the BM while it is on manual pump before heating to mash in temperature. The mash ph is always 5.35 for bitter. I would agree that ready crushed malt gives a lower efficiency so I crush my own with a roller gap of 1.2 mm
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Re: Mash pH woes and questions

Post by timtoos » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:01 pm

Orlando,

I use lactic acid as it was very easy to find and so ordered it. I have looked for sulphuric and hydrochloric acid's but could not find them online to order.

I know its not good practice, but since I had my water tested I never measure the alkalinity or calcium before or after salt additions. I have tested tonight though and I ended up with 0 alkalinity (0.98mm remaining - 1 drop turned the sample colour). The calcium came in at 10ppm.

I decided to make up the same water profile I used the other day to see what I ended up with. I did over 2x 4L batches. One adding the salts direct to the water and stirring and one when I added hot water to the salts in the hope of dissolving them more and adding this to the other 4L sample. Heres my findings:

* The pH did not alter from my base water value, all measuring 5.43 (ish). Would you expect the water to change pH after the salts were added?

* The TDS values changed when the salts were added, roughy 300 for both samples, up from 45 which is the base water level.

* The calcium levels were the same in both samples, about 115 - 120ppm. I was expecting 131ppm but I think its not bad. This error could be down to my testing technique though.

* The alkalinity remained the same with salts added.

After all this I am guessing that my salt additions (if correctly measured out and Run water calc's correct) should give me roughly what I was looking for.

IPA,

I don't crush my own malt, I buy pre crushed. No idea why my mash efficiency is low. Using MM crushed malts I set BH Efficiency at 67% and this gives a measured mash efficiency of 83.6% Does this sound right? Does Grahams water calc take into account grist profile like Bru'n water does as I could see no settings.

Killer,

I suppose I had mash pH values all over before I started testing and trying to correct. It never stopped my enjoying it either. Im sure the beer will be drinkable all the same. I plug in the volumes I mash with into Bru'n water so I would've thought that it should calculate. Should the fact theres more mash water (make any difference? I did set my mash and sparge volumes correctly).

Thanks all for your help and advice. Obviously I have made a mistake somewhere along the line.

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Re: Mash pH woes and questions

Post by orlando » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:01 pm

timtoos wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:01 pm
I have looked for sulphuric and hydrochloric acid's but could not find them online to order.

I know its not good practice, but since I had my water tested I never measure the alkalinity or calcium before or after salt additions. I have tested tonight though and I ended up with 0 alkalinity (0.98mm remaining - 1 drop turned the sample colour). The calcium came in at 10ppm.
APC Pure is a place you can get it, just don't go for high strength products. Get yourself a couple of Salifert kits to test alkalinity and calcium. The point is if you don't know what you are starting with or ending up with you are shooting in the dark.
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Re: Mash pH woes and questions

Post by timtoos » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:03 am

What strength acids should I be looking at? Also, is the Calcium hydroxide (slaked lime) they sell suitable for brewing (food safe)?

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Re: Mash pH woes and questions

Post by orlando » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:30 am

The reason for not going for high strength products is the crack down that has occured on selling it, plus diluting is somewhat hazardous. A 25% acid or 1m is safer to handle but you do use more of it each time. A glass pipettte and thumb wheel dispenser are very simple to use. Try eBay for those.
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Re: Mash pH woes and questions

Post by killer » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:09 am

The only mistake you made was believing an excel spreadsheet had magic powers !

pH prediction is informed witchcraft and while it's useful as a starting point the best way to determine what suitable additions is by practice. You are already halfway there with your water experiments - now try doing them with some grain too (mini-mashes). It could be with as little as 100g of grain - ideally using the recipe you want to brew. Keep the proportions of grain the same and the liquor:grist ratio as for the larger mash.



* The pH did not alter from my base water value, all measuring 5.43 (ish). Would you expect the water to change pH after the salts were added?

Not really for gysum, Calcium Chloride or Magnesium Sulfate. If you added Chalk (Calcium Carbonate) or Slaked lime it will rise if your starting pH is 5.43. 5.43 is remarkably low although you do have very pure water. Some pH meters have a hard time reading very pure solutions as they require a certain amount of dissolved salts to work correctly.

* The TDS values changed when the salts were added, roughy 300 for both samples, up from 45 which is the base water level.

That's normal - your TDS meter is most likely reading conductivity and converting to TDS - adding salts will increase the conductivity.

* The calcium levels were the same in both samples, about 115 - 120ppm. I was expecting 131ppm but I think its not bad. This error could be down to my testing technique though. Yes, or the amount of water in the salts... 10% out is not bad at all.

* The alkalinity remained the same with salts added.

That's normal too - In the vast majority of cases alkalinity is dissolved bicarbonate. Since you didn't add any it shouldn't change.


There is no need for you to buy slaked lime... It's sometimes (counterintuitively) used to lower alkalinity but as you are at zero it's not really of any use to you. You may need to add alkalinity for darker beers. You can use baking soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) or Chalk.

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Re: Mash pH woes and questions

Post by timtoos » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:04 am

Hi all,

Sorry to be a pain again and bring this thread back to life.
However, yesterday I brewed a Porter beer.

Grain bill was:
Amount SRM
Pale 3.59 3
Choc 0.32 482
Cara 0.26 76
Roast B 0.16 609
Wheat 0.14 2

Mashed in with 28L of water into my 20L BM.
My professional water report is:
Na 7.1
Mg 2.3
Ca 6.8
Cl 9.6
SO4 20.3
Bicarb 6.1
pH 5.34

I decided to use the Bru’n water black balanced profile, which is:
Ca 50
Mg 10
Na 33
SO4 57
Cl 44
Bicarb 142

I took water reading before salt additions to prove alkalinity and Ca and I got:
Ca 10
Alkalinity 5.01
TDS 47

The salt additions I chose to use were:
Gypsum 0.2g
CaCl 2.1
Epsom 2.7
Slaked Lime 1.1

After these additions I re-tested my water and got these results:
Ca 50
Alkalinity 51.09
TDS 171
Bru’n water had predicted:
Ca 44
Alkalinity 68

So I was pretty happy with these figures.

I mashed in my grain bill at 40C and let rest at this temperature for 5 minutes before ramp up to 67C.
I took my mash sample after 10 mins of mash in and cooled down to around 20C (think it was 22.3C).

To my surprise my mash pH was 5.82. I quickly entered my pH into Beersmith with what I wanted and it suggested I add 7ml of 80% lactic. I thought this was a bit much so added 5.0ml.

I left it 5 mins and took another mash reading. This time it read 5.38

I have done around 6 brews now where I have made my water for required profiles and these last 2 brews have proved a real problem.

My past 4 brews were made of raw materials and I measured each before adding them together for my total grist. I also purchase crushed malt as I do not have a mill!

The last 2 grain bills were purchased as milled kits from the MM. I found the grain colours from their website and I know the supposed grain ratio and amounts from the recipe.

What do you guys think? I am at a loss to why now my past 2 brews have been off. I was going to do a small mash pH test but with the grain all pre mixed I couldn’t guarantee I would get the full selection of malts from the grain bill in a small sample to test.

I always cool my sample to approximately 20C so I think this is correct.

Any advice?

TIA


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