Parti gyle IBU advice please!

[Monkhouse]

Hi, my brother in law is doing this massive stout and as I’m helping him with the brewday we had the idea of using the second runnings for a second beer parti gyle style.
Attached is the recipe, could anyone advise on hop additions? I’ve bought 50g of summit pellets @16.4 AA and was wondering on a ballpark IBU to aim for? Was originally thinking 30g at 60min to get 45 IBU?
I’m no idea what sort of gravity I will get from the second runnings but here’s what I’m thinking:
-Add 2kg pale ale malt after first runnings are out,
-Add 30 litres water (75c) and stir and leave to mash again for 30 min
-Run off slowly to boiler
-check gravity pre boil (how the hell do I predict what the gravity will be after the boil?)
-Add 30g summit pellets at 60min
-Add 1 tsp yeast nutrients at 15min
-Add 1/2 protofloc at 15min
-Add 250g lactose at 10min
-Add 500g dark muscovado sugar at 10min
This is the first Parti gyle I’ve done and ask the first brewday where I’m not following a recipe so could really use the advice!
Really appreciate any help in this one guys!

[Cobnut]

I’ve only done one partigyle brew day and I can tell you it was a bl**day long arduous day!

I had read - ISTR - that you can expect something like 1/4 to 1/3 of the gravity on a second runnings compared to what you got on the first runnings.

What I did was to blend the first and second runnings in proportions that I’d estimated but had to work out as the day progressed. Partly because I got different volumes than I’d calculated and partly cos I was plain wrong!

So my advice would be to have an idea of what you expect to get and do some calculations on your target bettering, but prepare to measure and recalculate according to what your measurements say. This is what I ended up doing.

Looking at my records I collected 26L @1065 and a further 20 L from a second mash of the grains @1018, but I then used a portion of each to create two beers which I then “boosted” with appropriate quantities of invert sugar (well, golden syrup and black treacle) to achieve a double stout Porter which ended up at 8.6% and a plain Porter @ 5.3%.

I might even have posted about this somewhere on JBK.

[Cobnut]

It was on another forum (photos have gone astray, but you’ll get the gist):


QUOTE;

I'd been hankering after trying a partigyle for a while, and inspired by reading "Guile Brews" by Peter Symon, I decided to tackle (p.274) the Kilburn IDSP & PP recipe, but it needed some tweaks to enable the GF to handle a large enough grain bill (the original called for 10Kg grain c.f. the GF "max" of 9kg).

So I scaled the recipe, made some slightly dubious assumptions about the efficiency I might get across 2 mashes, but accepted that I'd have to work out the mix of the two worts and the hops required somewhat on-the-fly.

So I set my GF to heat the (pre-treated with CRS per the water treatment calculator) water on Saturday evening (having bottled 2 batches of beer that afternoon!) so it'd be ready to mash in Sunday morning from 8am.

I didn't get up quite as early as planned (it is the weekend, after all!), but was weighing out a total of 8.3Kg of grains and CaCl2 by about 8.30 and mashed in by about 9am.

2BE2DA36-C655-4E49-882F-F53F3236A765.jpeg (2.61 MiB) Viewed 2641 times

This was the largest grain bill I've used to date in my GF (wasn't brave enough to push it to the full 9kg) and I think the picture shows how close I got to overflowing! (for info. I used 26L of mash water for quite a loose mash).

878224E0-62DB-4B99-9E94-4EDBBBF87B8C.jpeg (3.05 MiB) Viewed 2641 times

My plan was to draw off the first runnings into a separate container, perhaps with a small sparge. And this is what I did, collecting about 23L of wort.

And then to refill the GF with what I figured would be sufficient liquor to underlet the mash for a second 90 min mash. I did this, but I hadn't allowed for the fact that the grains would take some while to re-absorb the liquor and so I could simply lower the grain basket all the way into the GF without overflowing.

What followed was rather precarious procedure whereby I pumped out some of the liquor I'd added to the GF into the container of 1st runnings whilst continuing to balance the grain tube on top of the GF. I pumped out a further c. 3L and jugged some more into the top of the grain tube to enable me to get it back in without covering the floor more than absolutely necessary with wort!

It kind of worked.

90 mins later and I could collect my second runnings.

I then checked my gravities and found I'd got:

26L of 1st runnings at 1.064
20L of 2nd runnings at 1.018

I binned my plan to use some liquor to pad out the boils as I was going to end up with lower gravities in the beers than planned anyway, so adding more liquor would simply make this worse.

I combined as follows:

Copper 1 (GF): 20L 1st runnings + 6L 2nd runnings to give BG of 1056
Copper 2 (Tea urn): 6L 1st runnings + 14L 2nd runnings to give BG of 1031

I had planned to boil in both GF and my old tea urn (currently my sparge heater), but then use the GF CF chiller to chill and transfer to the 2 fermenters. I made a tactical error here. Rather than slightly delaying Copper 2, I started them about the same time and my error was made worse by the fact that the tea boiler came to a boil about 15 mins earlier than the GF (smaller boil and better insulated, I guess).

And 2 boils simultaneously produces a lot of steam, even on a mild early spring day!

45A2EDD8-FFAC-4450-B61C-8FF208A4C13A.jpeg (2.4 MiB) Viewed 2641 times

I'd recalculated the hops after having worked out the boil gravities, using 100g Fuggle (5.0%) and 20g Brewers Gold (4.5%) for the bigger beer and a mere 60g BG for the smaller beer. So with my boil issue I decided the curtail the smaller beer's boil and let it "sit and wait" til the GF became free in the hope of slightly reducing the over-bittering.

In the absence of proper Invert Sugar, I added a mix of c. 80% golden syrup and 20% blackstrap molasses to each boil at 15 mins; 0.95Kg for the bigger beer and 500g for the smaller beer.

Transfer via the CF Chiller was rather painfully slow, but eventually I got 2 beers:

IDSP @ 1079 and PP @ 1045 (or it might be 1049, I can't quite remember ), pitching WLP002 yeast slurry from the beer I'd bottled the day before at around 5pm.

Clear up finally finished around 8pm after I'd done my domestic duties cooking dinner (not to mention eating it!).

It was a bl**dy long brew day, leaving me thoroughly kn*ckered!

Not sure I'd be in a big hurry to do the same again, and if I did, I'd make a few changes.

Let's hope the beers turn out well!

[Monkhouse]

Wow well hopefully our brewday goes a bit smoother and less knackering!
There’s 2 of us after all so I’m thinking we should be ok, what concerns me is trying to work out the IBU I will need on the fly as you say! I normally plan everything meticulously a week before I actually brew so this will be pretty extreme for me!
Thanks for all that info!
Btw we won’t be blending worts it will literally be 1st runnings in one fv and second in another fv.
Had anyone else done a partigyle?

[Big_Eight]

Here's a calculator that will tell you how much to dilute or boil off to hit a gravity. You can take your preboil gravity and plug it in to the second calculator and it will give you what your OG will end up after boil off to whatever volume you are targeting.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/dilution- ... alculator/

Your preboil gravity should help you adjust your hops accordingly to target whatever IBU's you are shooting for in the beer.

Here's another calculator for IBU's. I have a spreadsheet I built myself using Tinseth that works well for me but this calculator should be pretty good as well.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/ibu-calcu ... XaEALw_wcB

[Cobnut]

Updated post with the pictures.

[Monkhouse]

Here's a calculator that will tell you how much to dilute or boil off to hit a gravity. You can take your preboil gravity and plug it in to the second calculator and it will give you what your OG will end up after boil off to whatever volume you are targeting.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/dilution- ... alculator/

Your preboil gravity should help you adjust your hops accordingly to target whatever IBU's you are shooting for in the beer.

Here's another calculator for IBU's. I have a spreadsheet I built myself using Tinseth that works well for me but this calculator should be pretty good as well.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/ibu-calcu ... XaEALw_wcB

This is extremely helpful!

[Big_Eight]

Here's a calculator that will tell you how much to dilute or boil off to hit a gravity. You can take your preboil gravity and plug it in to the second calculator and it will give you what your OG will end up after boil off to whatever volume you are targeting.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/dilution- ... alculator/

Your preboil gravity should help you adjust your hops accordingly to target whatever IBU's you are shooting for in the beer.

Here's another calculator for IBU's. I have a spreadsheet I built myself using Tinseth that works well for me but this calculator should be pretty good as well.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/ibu-calcu ... XaEALw_wcB

This is extremely helpful!

Glad to help. Good luck on your brew day! Let us know how it goes.

[MashBag]

Did one. Won't do another. With energy prices you might ask why?
Think of it as a marathon.... keep yourself WELL hydrated

[Cobnut]

Damn you!

I’m brewing an Impy stout in a couple of weeks and you’ve got me thinking about not wasting the leftover sugars in the 9Kg of grain I’ll be using and working out what sort of beer to make. I’ve got a tin of Munich malt extract which I think would be well used to boost the gravity of the second runnings, but what sort of beer will I end up with?

I’m thinking maybe to build up a starter of some lager yeast and make some kind of dark lager/bock - bitter with something clean like magnum and then late hop with whatever noble hops I’ve got (Saaz, Hallertauer, Tettnang, etc.).

Or do I go the plain Porter/stout route with a British yeast? Might mean adding a bit of molasses for a bit more colour? Or perhaps adding some more black or chocolate malt? Or maybe even colour adjusting with some brewer’s caramel once I see what sort of colour it is?

Too many beers, too little time!

[Monkhouse]

I’m not sorry! I’ve got to lug my entire brewery over to my brother in laws house tomorrow for the big brew day, I suppose the benefit of doing it this way is it will speed the day up a bit!
What exactly is the difference between a stout and a Porter? Is it that a Porter isn’t as dark? If this is the case maybe I should be targeting a Porter for the second runnings instead of a stout?

[Cobnut]

Not much between a stout and a Porter imo. I’d say that a stout should be more roasty than a Porter. Colour wise, many people would argue that a stout is darker, but I’d not take that as a hard rule.

Hope your brew day goes well!

[MashBag]

Cobnut are we going to open a book on which bit of essential kit gets left behind

[Monkhouse]

Well the day went perfectly! Started at 9 and I was home with a full fermenter at 5:30! It was really weird though as we both took pre boil gravity readings and they were both sat at 1.070 so we thought that the stronger brew (first runnings) had got really bad efficiency. Then the after the boil readings were completely different. I’ll let the pictures speak for themselves.

[Monkhouse]

Hmm, pictures to follow once I’ve figured out how to add them