Trub: leave or rack?

Make grain beers with the absolute minimum of equipment. Discuss here.
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Eric
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Re: Trub: leave or rack?

Post by Eric » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:47 pm

Norik wrote:I am incredibly sorry for offending you, I thought you were either being simply rude, or a troll.

Eric mentioned "brewing scientists" had found that trub had benefits on fermentation. Which I requested a source on, and in reply he did an excellent job. Which in turn I felt the need to show my approval for, because he had obviously put some effort in to.

Then you got your knickers in a twist, and felt the need to state that to filter something it must be filterable. However you're right, tautology is well above my education level, and certainly shouldn't get ideas above myself.

I did consider adding some folksy drivel about what I've taught my children, but to be honest you're just being a cock for the sake of being a cock
Eric did indeed mention benefits on trub for fermentation, but they were limited and conditional, so for for the sake of clarity and to disassociation myself from your version, it is repeated below. I'll presume your interpretation was a misunderstanding rather than one of intent, but kindly request if you wish to quote me again, you instead supply a link to my statement.

While yeast can benefit from some of the waste products of the brewing process, it was shown in the very early days of science (another new word of those times) that such surplus was more beneficial to bacteria and other contaminants than for yeast, so purity and a controlled amount of nutrient added to the FV was almost universally adopted.

If your equipment can't hold back trub, don't worry, it is still more likely you will produce a clean and drinkable product than one infected or polluted, but if you purposely allow trub to move to a next stage it's likely you have read more text from ill-informed brewers than of scientific ones.


The second sentence was added as an aid to those genuinely interested in the original question and might have concerns about any limitations of their equipment. I've found most brewers do wish to improve their equipment, processes and understanding as well as their beers and think those who don't might not be the best advocates for increased knowledge.

It was refreshing to note that last posting was your longest in a long time, if not of all time. Those six lines have revealed more than those of less.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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Norik
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Re: Trub: leave or rack?

Post by Norik » Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:36 pm

Eric wrote:Eric did indeed mention benefits on trub for fermentation, but they were limited and conditional, so for for the sake of clarity and to disassociation myself from your version, it is repeated below. I'll presume your interpretation was a misunderstanding rather than one of intent, but kindly request if you wish to quote me again, you instead supply a link to my statement.

While yeast can benefit from some of the waste products of the brewing process, it was shown in the very early days of science (another new word of those times) that such surplus was more beneficial to bacteria and other contaminants than for yeast, so purity and a controlled amount of nutrient added to the FV was almost universally adopted.

If your equipment can't hold back trub, don't worry, it is still more likely you will produce a clean and drinkable product than one infected or polluted, but if you purposely allow trub to move to a next stage it's likely you have read more text from ill-informed brewers than of scientific ones.


The second sentence was added as an aid to those genuinely interested in the original question and might have concerns about any limitations of their equipment. I've found most brewers do wish to improve their equipment, processes and understanding as well as their beers and think those who don't might not be the best advocates for increased knowledge.

It was refreshing to note that last posting was your longest in a long time, if not of all time. Those six lines have revealed more than those of less.

Eric, I expressed no opinion either for or against you or what you've said, although I do always find it odd when people talk about themselves in the 3rd person. I will admit I did express myself too strongly with my "Ah, hearsay and anecdotes" comment, but up to that point you had only expressed anecdotal evidence, which you swiftly remedied.
I will of course, in future, quote you in your entirety. Although I hope you forgive me for editing out nested quotes, I think they look untidy.


And thankyou for looking at my posting history, I only just noticed how far back it goes, although I haven't accrued the same number of posts as you in my 9 years.
I stand by my last reply to McMullan, although admittedly I did tease him with my tautology comment. He then made two posts, one questioning either my mental ability or my level of education, and the second a comment on the poor state of my upbringing.

I will continue call a spade a spade, as I've always found (in both real life or the internet) that if you don't pull people, children or otherwise, on their behavior they won't improve it. I hope that also ties in with my history.
Does this beat my last highest word-count I wonder.
I must drink the Beer.
Beer is the mind-killer.
Beer is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my Beer.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the Beer has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

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Eric
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Re: Trub: leave or rack?

Post by Eric » Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:08 am

I'd rather we talked about beer without pedantry so that true enlightenment doesn't become the victim.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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Bribie
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Re: Trub: leave or rack?

Post by Bribie » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:06 am

Back on track.

As a full volume BIAB brewer using a 40L electric boiler, I've been troubled with excessive amounts of trub in the boiler for ages, compared to my 3V and HERMS colleagues.
For about a year I have been using a different procedure and have greatly reduced trub.
  • After mashing I don't stir the mash at all, just let it rest
    No mashout
    Very very gently lift the bag over about 5 minutes, allowing a grain bed to form inside the bag. I have a pulley system so that's a bonus in my particular case.
    I use a grain bag (can also be bought as a paint strainer bag) to hold the hops - including hop pellets.
    I use a kettle finings - in my case Brewbright that is a blend of caragheenan that's in Irish Moss, and Polyclar to precipitate polyphenols that can go on to cause chill haze.
    At the end of the boil I put the lid on the boiler, take up position at the wall socket and watch for the steam shooting through the vents in the lid and turn off just before a boilover.
Here's a look at a typical trub after draining the boiler.
greatly reduced trub IPA.jpg
Here's what's going on: the enzymes such as Alpha Amylase actually now reside in the wort at the end of mash, so as the temperature ramps up these enzymes can clean up any residual starches. Because you are heating to boiling, the temperature then ramps up through mashout temp and kills enzyme activity. So no need to thrash the mash, releasing turbid stuff.
The grains have been sitting quietly for an hour or more, so let sleeping dogs lie and gently raise the bag. A sort of grain bed does form with gentle lifting.

I think a problem with a lot of BIAB brewers, myself included, is at end of mash to get that bag out as quickly as possible "way hey and up she rises" and never mind all that turbid stuff that pours out.

If you look at the photo, there's a definite trub ring - this is not only from the original free boil but a lot more gets deposited when you do the "boil up" thing at the end of boil, and I actually get a fair bit sticking to the bottom of the lid.

There's a couple of litres of dead space below the tap in the boiler (I realise this doesn't help the OP who jugs the wort) and I often run all of this off into a bottle and cool it, then add to the FV or use for starters. Here's a typical trub from a brew:
trub slow lift.jpg
So far I have noticed absolutely no loss of efficiency. And of course there's the bonus of losing less volume to trub which can end up wasting a lot of beer over a career.

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Kev888
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Re: Trub: leave or rack?

Post by Kev888 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:45 pm

With a separate MT there is the opportunty to recirculate before running off to the kettle, any fine grain particles that made it past the filter/false-bottom/manifold can be recaptured in the grain bed. But with BIAB and some one-pot systems, these particles tend to end up directly in the kettle. So yes, gentle removal of the grain and so less rapid back-flushing can certainly help reduce flushing out bits.

How much this contributes to 'trub' may depend on your definition; as Orlando mentioned, it seems to mean slightly different things to different people. Either way though, it is generally held that boiling the grain is not a good move, and fom my own experience I'm reasonably certain that 'excessive' particles in the boil can be detected in the flavour of the finished beer, so keeping the amounts reasonably modest seems worthwhile to me.
Kev

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