BIAB vs All Grain Beer quality and clarity

[TheSumOfAllBeers]

For reference, I use 35 L in the kettle, and reserve 5 L for a dunk sparge. Once the bag is hoisted, it is squeezed thoroughly between a chopping board and an oven grill tray. Then it is dunk sparged, after squeezing the bag again, this liquor tends to come out gravity wise about 50% of what is in the kettle.

So if the kettle gives me 1.045 post mash, the dunk sparge is around 1.022-25.

Haven't done a lot of measurements but it might be worth seeing how I am decreasing my grain losses through squeezing etc.

[PhilB]

Hi Aamcle

I've discussed extraction on Biabrewer.info some very very experienced brewers tell me that sparging is not needed and doesn't improve efficiency.

... and I wouldn't doubt that that's what those brewers have experienced ... because whether or not sparging will improve efficiency, depends on how you do it ... as Pat Hollingdale (PistolPatch on BIABrewer.info) explained on the Basic Brewing Radio podcast of April 24, 2014, "BIAB Legacy" (available from there (link)) (at around 16:20 into the recording) ...

... you’ll often see on forums as well that people say that BIAB’s not as efficient as other methods whereas the truth is it’s actually … erm … it’s actually a little bit more efficient than batch sparging and actually a little bit less than fly sparging ...

... and he then goes on to explain why that is, which is what vacant and I were explaining in our previous posts

Personally I've found dunk sparging gets an increase in extraction, but it's easier to just use a bit more grain.

... and that's what I feel the guys over at BIABrewer.info are really meaning, when they say "sparging is not needed" ... it comes down to the question of "is that (possible/minor) improvement in efficiency, worth it?"

Cheers, PhilB

[BrannigansLove]

When I did BIAB, I got about 70% efficiency. I did full volume mashes, no sparge, and squeezed the bag as much as I could. For me the important thing is consistency, knowing you'll be there or thereabouts with your numbers is more important than getting an extra point or two on your gravity. That said, I did what I could to improve my efficiency, such as crushing my grain as fine as I dared.

[RdeV]

Oh, this hoary old chestnut again... Sadly I don't make it to JBK as often as I'd like, so a belated follow up.
WRT BIAB and Sparge, as I've related elsewhere many times before, pretty sure here on JBK too, in certain circumstances the BIAB Dunk Sparge is helpful PROVIDED THAT the kettle volume is limited with respect to the required ferment volume. What this means is that brewers wishing to ferment 23L of beer from the ubiquitous 19L stockpot can indeed do it, its become known as Maxi-BIAB (http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=352), and it involves a sparge step to make up the extra volume that stock or standard BIAB unfortunately cannot provide.
Despite all the naysayers and misinformation, even at BIABrewer where the slightest mention of sparge step is usually met with IMO zealous indignation and derision, AFAIK no one has demonstrated an alternative means for BIAB to achieve these ends, but it must be remembered that the BIAB sparge step has the most utility in these limited circumstances and as such it is a worthwhile extension of the methodology.
Oh and BTW, there's no great 'investment' needed to execute the Maxi-BIAB sparge step, a simple 10 or 15L bucket is sufficient, pretty sure we all have access to one of those.
Disclaimer/ Fine Print: I'm the author of the guide linked above, however no longer an active supporter of the host.

[aamcle]

I've copied this over from my post on another forum I've not tried to be scientificly rigorous :-

I've just done my first Biab without recirculation and ran a few numbers.

The batch -
Pale 4kg
Munich1 0.5kg
Mash 65DegC
Galaxy 30g at 70mins
Galaxy 30g at 0mins
Wai-iti 30 at 0mins
Dry Hop 20 for 4 days

Water (Ashbeck) was treated prior to mashing.

The SG's were measured at room temperature the volumes were measured at Mash Temp. As I found my self short of soft water I mashed with 20 litres and dunk sparged with 10 litres of hot tap water.

After lifting the grain bag but prior to sparging.
15litres in kettle 1.060 SG 63% Eff

After dunk sparging a sample was caught dripping from grain bag.
10litres sparge 1.020 SG 14% Eff 

I've assumed 10litres remained in the bucket after the grain was lifted as the grain was fully saturated prior to dunking and it looked about right.

After boil.

21litres 1.051 SG 76% Eff.

One dunk and I achieved 76% in the past I've obtained over 80% on a number of (recirculated) batches with two dunks.
Low efficiency 63% at least in this case doesn't seem to be related to pH, if conversion had not occurred I could not have washed it out with a dunk.

I've not been super fussy about measurements I'm not trying to produce some sort of Proof of anything just get a good indication of how things are working.


ATB. Aamcle

So far the only drawback I've observed is that I cant use my CFC.

[Redimpz]

I brew using biab and I always batch sparge. it enable me to get the required liquid into the boiler as my coolbox mashtun only holds about 15l with the grain in. I just lift the bag out of the water, put it in a bucket and add hot water at about 70C. This then all goes in the pot for boiling. It is just like making another cup of tea with the same bag.
Clarity is spot on and I've never worried about efficiency. This method makes good beer and that is it.

[AnthonyUK]

I brew using biab and I always batch sparge. it enable me to get the required liquid into the boiler as my coolbox mashtun only holds about 15l with the grain in. I just lift the bag out of the water, put it in a bucket and add hot water at about 70C. This then all goes in the pot for boiling. It is just like making another cup of tea with the same bag.
Clarity is spot on and I've never worried about efficiency. This method makes good beer and that is it.

I don't want to pidgeonhole anything but I would, to avoid confusion, mention that your method is 2 vessel BIAB.

[Kev888]

The wort retained by the grain in true/non-sparged BIAB is full (pre-boil) gravity, so rinsing that out (essentially replacing it with sparge water) does improve efficiency. However in 'very' high gravity brews the effect of excessively stiff mashes reducing efficiency can be made worse by holding some liquor back to sparge with, which can somewhat offset the gains. In that case using more liquor than needed and boiling to reduce it afterwards may be better.

Its unlikely that most improvised sparges will achieve anything like the same efficiency and quality of wort that a better controlled sparge (such as may be seen in three-vessel systems) can achieve. But the need to do so isn't as pressing with BIAB because (1) the bags drain so well that typically less wort is retained by them and (2) fewer vessels tend to mean fewer losses to dead-space so brewhouse efficiency is reasonable even if mash/extraction efficiency is average.

People can get carried away with efficiency IMO, going to great lengths to tease out a few pennies worth of extra wort, potentially at detriment to the beer quality and consistency when, in a home brew setting, a handful or two more grain would do the same thing. Sparging is about improving efficiency, not quality - chasing the former too far or too crudely can risk reducing the latter.

Its possible to make good or terrible beer, and clear or cloudy beer, with either BIAB or 3V. I prefer the latter and feel it has a slight edge, but neither method should be an obstacle to brewers who know what they are doing.