Low Pressure Regulator advice

A forum to discuss the various ways of getting beer into your glass.
TheSumOfAllBeers
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Re: Low Pressure Regulator advice

Post by TheSumOfAllBeers » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:41 pm

Rhodesy wrote:I am getting one of these from santa.

I plan to use it for dispensing from a 9L Corny which is mobile. It can fit either the small charges or a sodastream bottle so nice and flexible,
I have one. It is being returned after dumping an entire bulb into a 4L mini keg in one go.

Apparently there are batch problems. You might be lucky with that reg.

Rhodesy
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Re: Low Pressure Regulator advice

Post by Rhodesy » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:08 pm

TheSumOfAllBeers wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:41 pm
Rhodesy wrote:I am getting one of these from santa.

I plan to use it for dispensing from a 9L Corny which is mobile. It can fit either the small charges or a sodastream bottle so nice and flexible,
I have one. It is being returned after dumping an entire bulb into a 4L mini keg in one go.

Apparently there are batch problems. You might be lucky with that reg.
Thats reassuring :D. Same seller etc? I'll give it a go in any case as it will be getting used on Christmas day, just kegged that batch today as it happens.

Thanks for the heads up as will test with a bulb before using the more expensive soda stream bottle option. I had a mini reg previously which was ok until the gauge started working. It was also a nightmare to control leaving me unsatisfied that when you could get a reading that it was not accurate in any case.

Matt in Birdham
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Re: Low Pressure Regulator advice

Post by Matt in Birdham » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:58 pm

I have a pretty standard regulator that came with (from memory) a 0-100(ish) PSI gauge. I recently broke this gauge (there is a thread on here about it), and replaced with a 0-60 gauge. This swap was very easy and I wish I had done it sooner, as the new gauge is much easier to read than the old one. It would be just as easy to replace with a 0-15 which would give you the granularity you want. I toyed with the idea but went for the 60 as I occasionally like to give beers a blast at 40psi when I keg, and also make sparkling water with a carbonation cap.

I also have one of the small regulators mentioned in this thread. I have found it pretty good - I use it to cap off my SS chronical at the end of ferment and provide positive CO2 pressure whilst crashing and I do believe (believe being the key word here) that it has improved my hop-forward beers. Just FYI I don't leave it on, as the SS is not leak proof, but give it a blast every day or so to keep the pressure up. The SS does seem pretty leak proof with negative internal pressure. Also if you get the standard issue pressure-transfer cap for the SS then there is a PRV (5psi?) included and I haven't had any issues with blowing it up yet, although I have seen a youtube vid where this did happen (I don't think they were using the cap with PRV though).

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PeeBee
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Re: Low Pressure Regulator advice

Post by PeeBee » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:37 am

Matt in Birdham wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:58 pm
I have a pretty standard regulator that came with (from memory) a 0-100(ish) PSI gauge. I recently broke this gauge (there is a thread on here about it), and replaced with a 0-60 gauge. This swap was very easy and I wish I had done it sooner, as the new gauge is much easier to read than the old one. It would be just as easy to replace with a 0-15 which would give you the granularity you want. I toyed with the idea but went for the 60 as I occasionally like to give beers a blast at 40psi when I keg, and also make sparkling water with a carbonation cap. ...
You did well picking the 0-60 gauge. If you'd got a 0-15 one it would have high-lighted how "unstable" these "primary" regulators are, and that would have driven you nuts chasing a particular pressure. The regulator will probably fail to hold down at 7-8PSI anyway, so half the 0-15PSI version would be unused (fails to hold reliably - seems okay for the day, but when you come back the next day it'll be reading something else). It's the reason why I recommend secondary regulators,
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

TheSumOfAllBeers
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Re: Low Pressure Regulator advice

Post by TheSumOfAllBeers » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:32 pm

Looking into this with a view to connecting everything up and putting some orders in:

This propane reg: https://gasproducts.co.uk/gas-regulator ... lator.html

Has a 3/8" outlet, what would I need to connect this to a corny gas in post (I want to order everything in one go, rather than finding what I am missing when everything is connected).

The harder part is how to connect the inlet to the 3/8 gas line coming out of the primary.

Also, the 3/8" outlets add a lot to the cost of the reg. Would it be cheaper or smarter to adapt the 8mm hosebarb to a 3/8" gas line (the smarter meaning less leaks).

If anyone has done this before, or still does it, and can they share a parts list?

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Re: Low Pressure Regulator advice

Post by jaroporter » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:59 pm

https://www.bes.co.uk/propane-low-press ... kg-hr-8802

male bsp to john guest adaptor in each end. you can mount it through a keezer with some m5 stud too
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PeeBee
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Re: Low Pressure Regulator advice

Post by PeeBee » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:28 pm

TheSumOfAllBeers wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:32 pm
Looking into this with a view to connecting everything up and putting some orders in:

This propane reg: https://gasproducts.co.uk/gas-regulator ... lator.html

...
You probably won't thank me for this, but here goes...
20170902_151501_WEB.jpg
You can see the 3/8" BSP outlets on my regulators and they are plugged with 3/8" to 1/4" adapters (the pipework is all 1/4" BSP). The adapters cost about 70p (BES). Or about £3.20 with free postage (Context Pneumatics on EBay). Or cheaper (brass will do, you don't need stainless steel on the gas side). Once you are using "standard" sizes (like BSP) you can pretty much do anything.

The "bubble counters" and needle valves in the piccie make up my cask/keg "venting" method.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

TheSumOfAllBeers
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Re: Low Pressure Regulator advice

Post by TheSumOfAllBeers » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:44 am

Thanks guys, I did a bit of looking around, and found that the adjustable one, 50-150mbar has female BSP fittings:
https://gasproducts.co.uk/gas-regulator ... ooder.html

50mbar is a bit higher that what was talked about in thread for cask breather applications, but its perfect for transfers and FV headspace top up. So I will probably go with that. And once you are BSP, everything is so much easier...

Might followup with a shopping list later for you guys to critique ? I have doing multiple orders when I am missing parts ...

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Re: Low Pressure Regulator advice

Post by PeeBee » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:25 pm

TheSumOfAllBeers wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:44 am
... 50mbar is a bit higher that what was talked about in thread for cask breather applications, ...
I'd argue strongly against that view! 0PSI is great in Pubs when the cask is drunk in 2 days, but for homebrew? You might be drinking homebrew four weeks after the cask was broached. To emulate "Real Ale" for that length of time you must have a tiny bit of pressure. Want to check my arguments? See https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwzEv ... DNPdmV1bWc.

Jim here has a different approach. Serves at 0PSI with a breather but restores a tad of pressure at the end of a session (or at least that is what I think he is doing - I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong):
Jim wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:16 am
1300s wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:12 am
Jim wrote:
Mon May 08, 2017 8:58 am
These days I use a home brew plastic keg with a modified lid that connects to a cask breather and CO2 bottle.
Apologies for the thread resurrection on my first post!

Jim, do you have any pictures of your modified lid and breather? I'm a newbie planning something similar and looking for inspiration :)

Thanks,

Michael
Hi Michael, I'll take a few pics when I get the chance. It's on the keg at the moment, so it'll be external only.

EDIT:
Image
Image
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Dads_Ale
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Re: Low Pressure Regulator advice

Post by Dads_Ale » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:14 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:25 pm
TheSumOfAllBeers wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:44 am
... 50mbar is a bit higher that what was talked about in thread for cask breather applications, ...
I'd argue strongly against that view! 0PSI is great in Pubs when the cask is drunk in 2 days, but for homebrew? You might be drinking homebrew four weeks after the cask was broached. To emulate "Real Ale" for that length of time you must have a tiny bit of pressure. Want to check my arguments? See https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwzEv ... DNPdmV1bWc.

Jim here has a different approach. Serves at 0PSI with a breather but restores a tad of pressure at the end of a session (or at least that is what I think he is doing - I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong):
Jim wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:16 am
1300s wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:12 am

Apologies for the thread resurrection on my first post!

Jim, do you have any pictures of your modified lid and breather? I'm a newbie planning something similar and looking for inspiration :)

Thanks,

Michael
Hi Michael, I'll take a few pics when I get the chance. It's on the keg at the moment, so it'll be external only.

EDIT:
Image
Image
I am now doing something similar to Jim
DSCF6417.JPG
I am using with corny kegs (now have 19 ltre one attached). During serving I release pressure and serve via the cask breather. If I know I am not going to be drinking for a few day I shut off connections to the beer engine and cask breather and pressurise to a few psi. On serving day it just a case of venting pressure before serving (remember to only open the valve to the beer engine when all pressure has been released unless you have a check valve installed).
I have had a 19l corny set up on this for at least 4 weeks and the beer is as good as day one.

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Re: Low Pressure Regulator advice

Post by TheSumOfAllBeers » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:39 pm

This is my thinking too with cask breather applications. Dispense and FV top up are more critical to me. I could do cask breather with a polypin in a bagpipe fashion if I needed to

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Re: Low Pressure Regulator advice

Post by jaroporter » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:17 pm

heh think i'm just gonna agree to disagree before even starting here. each to their own. that's the beauty of DIY.. :D
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Re: Low Pressure Regulator advice

Post by PeeBee » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:23 am

TheSumOfAllBeers wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:39 pm
... I could do cask breather with a polypin in a bagpipe fashion if I needed to
No Point. If using a polypin atmospheric pressure will collapse the bag as beer is removed. So the cask breather will do nothing.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Low Pressure Regulator advice

Post by PeeBee » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:56 am

Dads_Ale wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:14 pm
... I am using with corny kegs (now have 19 ltre one attached). During serving I release pressure and serve via the cask breather. If I know I am not going to be drinking for a few day I shut off connections to the beer engine and cask breather and pressurise to a few psi. On serving day it just a case of venting pressure before serving (remember to only open the valve to the beer engine when all pressure has been released unless you have a check valve installed).
I have had a 19l corny set up on this for at least 4 weeks and the beer is as good as day one.
The advantage of my policy is it's a no-touch solution; I don't have to remember to wind the pressure up again when the beer is "resting". The disadvantage was hi-lighted by a porter I was serving at Christmas - I pictured it on another thread (viewtopic.php?f=5&t=80116). For some reason the beer clung onto it's carbonation (primed and naturally conditioned to 4-5PSI) for several days. Perhaps it was the "heavy" sweetish finish to the porter? But after several days the head became pretty ordinary as equilibrium was attained (I was serving at 2PSI). I guess I'd have retained the striking head (look, no Nitrogen!) if I'd had wound the pressure back up to 4-5PSI when not serving.

I'm currently working on a "home" version of the old Guinness "high cask, low cask" mechanism. Or even try a sparkler (choke). One things for sure, I'll never cave in to all that "Nitrogen" silliness.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Kev888
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Re: Low Pressure Regulator advice

Post by Kev888 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:49 am

If the intention is to replicate truly traditional cask-conditioned beer at home, possibly the only way one can fully do that is to use small enough vessels that they won't oxidise and go too flat before you finish them. For many of us that isn't practical, so some kind of compromise is needed. In particular, filling the increasing head-space with CO2, rather than air, stops the beer becoming badly oxidised in relatively short order. That is often achieved with ultra-low pressure cask breathers (or reversed propane regulators) - probably in part because these are in a grey, least objectionable area wrt CAMRA.

But in practical terms, most cask beers have a little condition/carbonation and if they have been broached for long enough to go very flat then this too has a detrimental affect IMO - even if served via beer engines. To prevent this where beer is drunk more slowly, enough pressure is needed in the head-space to maintain equilibrium. For cask-like levels I would not directly follow the equilibrium charts frequently used to gauge force-carbonating pressure, but something around the upper end of their 'under-carbonated' range works for me, to keep the condition as it should be, indefinitely. A normal primary+secondary regulator combo can go low enough at normal ale temperatures (say ~13c), even a decent primary regulator alone can manage if necessary.

There isn't really a need to reduce pressure between storing and dispensing sessions. Such things can cause variation, depending on how long the dispensing session is (or if forgotten afterwards), and in some cases dropping the pressure below equilibrium to dispense can cause foaming. Beer engines can be run via a demand valve, to prevent beer pushing through them if there is sight pressure in the cask/barrel/keg etc. Though not all types of keg are well suited to sealing at low pressure, so it may be necessary to juggle pressures there. If one were setting out with cask-like beer particularly in mind I'd suggest that a type of cask, keg or barrel purpose-designed to seal at any low (or no) pressure would be the way to go.
Kev

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