getting confused

[Den Jerus]

The more I read the more questions I seem to have.
I have used baby bottle Sterilising Fluid to clean my bottles, FV and Barrels until recently with no bad effect, and the results of my labours have been quite acceptable.
My last brew, a Wilko kit IPA has a little twang and is taking a long time to clear (it's been in the barrel 5 weeks now) as I usually bottle half a dozen samples that have long since cleared I am beginning to suspect that maybe my barrel wasn't as clean as it might have been.
I have bought some Star San HB to assist in the cleaning process, but reading about it here on the forum I begin to doubt the wisdom of this choice.
Seems that you dilute it and spray everything with it and that's fine for the accessible surfaces of my brewing vessel but can I just swill it around inside my barrels and throw it away (or collect it for future use?)
And is ordinary washing up liquid sufficient to use with the barrel brush before using the Sanitiser?
I've just started a Festival Golden Stag (those pouches are such a good Idea over cans) and I don't want this one to spoil.
Hope this problem isn't too basic, but I don't know my krausen from my wort, and just follow the instruction leaflets, and they don't do details of cleaning.

[BenB]

Milton like products are chlorine based so need rinsing well otherwise you can get TCP flavours developing. I still use it occasionally for a "deep clean". Starsan doesn't need rinsing. You can just dump it after use but most people keep / reuse.

[richard080561]

Don't forget that Starsan is a sanitiser, not a cleaner. You need to use something like PWB or an Oxycleaner first

[oldbloke]

I wouldn't let washing up liquid anywhere near my brewing kit. If it needs a deep clean, one of the unperfumed oxy cleansers is my choice. Cheap from garden centres etc

[Fil]

ok well my take on this is....
Washing up liquid and soaps leave a residue unless very well rinsed that if left in your brew vessels can break down the head forming aspects of the beer (im not knowlagable in the area just repeating collective wisdom)

when using a chlorine based sanitiser again the common wisdom is that a 3 x rinse cycle is advisable again to 'clingy residues' as any residual chlorine can impart a noticeable TCP taint to a batch.

cleanliness is out #1 tool in the battle against getting infections, a very effective budget cleaning agent (although it does require warm water..) is generic unscented laundry oxi/oxy Astonish is a brand, but supermarkets and wilco's will also have thier own lable brand too
its Whizz in the £shop iirc but £shop buys need a quick open to check its the unscented version regardless of the package lable .. so if you spot a chap sniffing laudry oxi in the £shop chances are he's a brewer a good soak will remove even the most stubborn dried on yeast ring from a bucket

Cleanliness is crucial for sanitation, as if there is dirt there is sanitation cover for unwanted microlife..

Our level of sanitation even with the best practices and best intentions isnt ever going to be lab level, microlife is abundant in the air just floating about and we ourselves are covered in it

As brewers we counter this by doing the best we can and pitching HUGE numbers of yeast cells into our beers we are talking billions of cells.. and these out eat and starve off any odd competing bugs that landed on the kit post sanitation.

starsan is a very effective germicide but is less effective against wild yeast strains, as wild yeasts even if they gain access to the brew cant compete against the huge populations of the picthed yeasts thier impact on a brew is probably not going to be noticable.

Some germs however can feed on other aspects of the brew and gain dominance so Starsans effectivness against germs is far more important than its inefficiencies with respect to wild yeast strains.

the milking industry ues a no rinse sanitiser PERACETIC ACID http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-LITRE-PERAC ... Sw9N1VqA-O
which is more effective than starsan with wild yeasts. But is less user friendly as i understand it, and can need masks if sprayed..

On a personal level i can attest that after switching to starsan as a no rinse sanitiser a few years back i have had no infection probs..

fwiw i mix up 5l of starsan sanitiser at a time and apply to most surfaces with a trigger spray bottle, and a small finger bowl for small item soaking and finger dipping when i need to attach clean bits.. - dont fear the foam, its all good it keeps the surfaces in contact with the sanitiser and decomposes to yeast friendly building blocks in the brew..

a 5l batch will do 2 brewdays easily i use a cheap book of ph papers to check the ph of the starsan is low enough to be effecive just in case but so far it alwys has been. ive used tesco ashbeck water as my tap water is too hard and clouds instantly..

[Haydnexport]

after a couple of 'infections' , no doubt my fault from opening fv and checking temp / gravity / clarity too often , and leaving it way too long instead of kegging , i have come to soak everything in a diluted bleach solution , 4ml per liter , or as usual slightly more , and leave it for 30 mins. Its supposed to be a no rinse at this level , but i rinse anyway , not had a problem since. http://howtobrew.com/book/section-1/bre ... -equipment

[BenB]

I like rotating sanitisers- most of the time I'll use Starsan but every now and again I use a bleach based or Videne soak in addition (buckets only- bleach or Iodine (Videne) can pit stainless if left for "too long"- how long is too long???) in addition to nuke the bugs Starsan doesn't hit.

[McMullan]

+1 for rotating sanitisers. Kill the super bugs I use Starsan, Iodophor and bleach. I'd also iterate the importance of cleaning thoroughly. Even clean looking FVs, kegs, bottles, etc. can have surfaces with a biofilm harbouring and shielding bugs from the desirable effects of sanitisers. PBW is very effective. So is bleach on dirty glassware.

[Kev888]

Yes, physically cleaning stuff is important before using dininfectants/sterilizing potions. Percarbonate-based cleaner or soda crystals and that kind of thing in a warm soak are good for cleaning.

Some people would then use starsan as the disinfectant, it only needs a short contact time to work on clean equipment so swishing around for a while is sufficient. The benefit is that starsan doesn't need rinsing with water so is a good last step, which can be done at the last minute. However many people's tap water isn't suitable for starsan, the mixed solution needs an acid Ph of 3 or better, so you may Need to get RO water or something.

Personally I started using chlorine (from bleach, but Milton tablets also work) to disinfect, its more effective than starsan. But after plentiful rinsing its still nice to finish with a no-rince disinfectant like starsan or an iodophor just before use.

[Den Jerus]

Many thanks for all the contributors responses. That's cleared some of the confusion.
I appreciate all the help, now a quick online chemistry course to discover the Ph balance of my water!
Thanks again everyone,
To paraphrase Arnold Schwartzenegger.. I'll Be Baaaack

[Kev888]

It is often said that if the starsan solution goes cloudy or milky, this indicates insufficient acidity of the mix. However, whilst that is often true, it isn't always so - some test papers (of a suitably narrow Ph range) are more certain.

However, RO water is cheap from many aquatics stores - mine sells 25litre refills for a fiver (plus initial cost of the container) - and the mixed solution lasts longer if the PH is lower to begin with so it seems worthwhile buying to me.

Many would rely on starsan alone to disinfect (i.e after cleaning of physical deposits) but some doubts have arisen as to its effectiveness on wild yeast, which is why I use it as a final rinse stage following other disinfectants. That may be paranoia, but certainly if you believe there may be an existing infection to deal with it may be wise to hit it with something stronger- starsan is convenient but a chlorine solution would be more effective.

[WalesAles]

Holy Sh%t!
Am I to believe that a quick rinse under a running cold tap is not acceptable for all brewing equipment?
Lots to learn yet then!

WA

[Wezzel]

Personally I've always used fairy liquid to wash FVs etc before storing them and then rinsed in Starsan prior to using them. Never had a problem and certainly never suffered from problems with head retention.

I just use PBW every few brews for a deep clean.


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