Bottle carbonation, Woodforde Wherry Kit

[Joystick]

Hi, really appreciate some guidance please.
I just tried my first home brew, Woodforde Wherry and I’ve Got to the tasting stage (I think). Basically the beer is as flat as a pancake!
I used the 1 can kit (20 pint) but instead of following the kit instructions I took heed of advice generally given in on-line forums that recommend the 2 week’s primary fermentation, 2-week’s secondary fermentation and finally 2 week’s conditioning at cooler temperatures. The O.G.was measured at 1.042 at 18 deg C and after the 2 week’s in the F.V. at 20deg C and just before racking to the PET bottles that came with the kit I measured the F.G. at 1.010. Doing the calculation resulted in an Alk by vol of 4.2% which is close to what the kit advertised. After racking to the bottles using a bottle stick I added 2x carbonation drops to each bottle before screwing on the bottle caps tightly. The bottles were then stored at 20 deg C for a further 2 week’s for secondary fermentation within the bottles before transferring the bottle to my very cool garage (perhaps 0 to 7 deg C dependant on the ambient outside temperatures). I gave it just over 2 more weeks to condition and about a week and a half ago I tried a couple bottles. Whilst the beer smelt and tasted reasonable it was as flat as a pancake, there didn’t seem to be any carbonation. What did I do wrong? Is the beer redeemable at this stage? My local brew shop (here in Galway Ireland) advised that I should try returning the bottles back to the 20 deg C room and after agitating/shaking the bottles leave them for another 2 week’s before trying again. Any advice gratefully received as I have a 40 pint Woodforde Admirals Reserve kit waiting to be brewed and I want this to turn out better (properly carbonated within the bottles). I hasten to add that everything was properly steralized including the bottles and caps (with Starsan). Many thanks.

[MarkA]

I would return them to 20 degrees for a while. Did the PET bottles feel hard or soft when they were warm? I use a couple when I bottle just to test carbonation. Also, warm the bottles to about 12 degrees (cellar temp) before drinking, as 0 to 7 is too cold for an ale.

[Joystick]

Hi MarkA,
Thank you for your reply and advise. I had been squeezing the side of the PET bottles to see if there was any increase in pressure but I couldn’t detect any obvious change from when I first filled the bottles. However I have now put my bottles back into the 20 deg C room and will monitor the pressure via the “squeeze test”. I did wonder if I might have left the brew in the FV for too long (2 week’s) and the yeast had ‘run out of steam so to speak’ so there might not have been enough live yeast left to do the carbonation? I was very careful when I racked the beer into the bottles and didn’t stir the sediment up or introduced more oxygen by allowing the beer to splash. Would there be enough yeast suspended in the beer to do the job of carbonation in the bottles (after introducing the two carbonation drops per bottle)?

[sonicated]

I did wonder if I might have left the brew in the FV for too long (2 week’s) and the yeast had ‘run out of steam so to speak’ so there might not have been enough live yeast left to do the carbonation?

I very much doubt it. Real Ale (TM) as defined by CAMRA must have a minimum of 1 million east cells per ml, so even the bright/clear Real Ale (TM) you get in pubs has many millions of yeast cells in it.

And serve your beer at whatever temperature you want It's good to experiment. I like to start off with one quite cold (4C) and see how it changes as the temperature rises in the glass.

[sonicated]

I did wonder if I might have left the brew in the FV for too long (2 week’s) and the yeast had ‘run out of steam so to speak’ so there might not have been enough live yeast left to do the carbonation?

I very much doubt it. Real Ale (TM) as defined by CAMRA must have a minimum of 1 million east cells per ml, so even the bright/clear Real Ale (TM) you get in pubs has many millions of yeast cells in it.

And serve your beer at whatever temperature you want It's good to experiment. I like to start off with one quite cold (4C) and see how it changes as the temperature rises in the glass.

[MarkA]

And serve your beer at whatever temperature you want It's good to experiment. I like to start off with one quite cold (4C) and see how it changes as the temperature rises in the glass.

Definitely, it's down to personal taste, but for the sake of finding out whether beer is primed or not, I've found it's best to serve at a slightly warmer temperature. I under-primed a lager once and it was as flat as a pancake when chilled, but came to life when poured at around 10 degrees.

[Joystick]

Thank you MarkA and Sonicated, I’m Feeling a little more confident that my brew might yet sparkle (at least a little). I’ll keep giving the PET bottles a little squeeze to see if they firm up in the coming weeks. I’m just getting ready to start my second Woodforde’s kit (Admirals Reserve) so hopefully this will be a little less of a mystery and produce the desired outcome. I’ll keep the forum up to date and thank you both for your assistance.

[Joystick]

Hi,
I just thought I’d Update every one on my bottle carbonation issue.
I took the advice of returning the bottles to the 20 deg C environment and gave each bottle a gentle shake before standing them upright. After 4 day’s I checked the firmness of the PET bottles by squeezing them. They had definitely hardened up! Yesterday evening I took one bottle and put it into the fridge for about 2 hours and then opened it to try. Pssst went the cap and though not overly gassed it definitely has a sparkle and little bubbles clung to the beer glass. It tasted very nice but the small amount of carbonation has definitely made it a much more refreshing. I will leave the remaining bottles at 20 deg for a few more days before moving them back to the cool garage again for further conditioning. So reviewing what happened I think I was a bit premature in moving the bottles from the 2nd fermentation to conditioning temperatures and I should have perhaps given the bottles a small amount of agitation just after racking and putting the carbonation drops in.
Gentlemen (and Ladies?) thank you for your valuable advise and encouragement, at this stage I now consider my first beer brewing attemp a success. It was definitely very helpful to get the encouragement and support from you all.

[MarkA]

Glad it worked out well, enjoy the beer and get the next batch on!

[Joystick]

Hi MarkA,
Thank you, yes I hope to make a new batch some time over the Easter weekend (my 2nd ever brew). It’s another kit, though it’s the larger 2 can kit supposedly giving 32 pints this time. (woodfordes Admirals Reserve).
I am toying around with the idea of doing a priming mix using disolved DME/spray malt and adding it to the brew before bottling instead of priming each bottle with the carbonation drops this time round. I’m reading up on all this from a home brew book I have and also from forums like this one. It’s a steep learning curve for me but I am definitely impressed enough with my first attempt to continue. I’ll keep this forum updated on my second ever brew under a new thread heading. Cheers for now.

[kendizle]

Hi there, Im a fellow novice and wanted to share a tip for the Admirals reserve youre about to brew. This was my first brew and I had a few problems with a stuck fermentation. From advice on here I worked out that the instructions on the pack are over ambitious, I didnt provide enough oxygenation at the start, the pack yeast isnt the best, and avoiding twang is helpful.

I'd recommend using a brew enhancer to neutralise the chlorine in the tap water and feed the yeast.
Consider swapping out the yeast for a better one.
I pour my water in from a high position to help oxygenate, then give a vigureous stir when FV is half full, to avoid splashing
I didnt get below 1.014 FG after 2 weeks.
I added 60g dextrose, diluted in cooled kettle water, put this in the secondary before racking into it. added finings, Then left for 2 days, then half a day outside (after our snow).
Left in bottles in room at 21c for 2 weeks, then in garage.

Carbonation was just perfect and although the beer tastes nice, there is that definite twang taste. My second brew was a mocha porter, I definitely noticed the difference in the lack of twang after adding the enhancer. I didnt use finings, but did chill for a couple days.

Happy brewing

[Joystick]

Hi Kendizle,
Thank you for your tips, that was very helpful of you. I will certainly consider swapping the yeast at your suggestion, I’ll Have to see what my brew shop has available. I use bottled spring water simply because my tap water is sourced from a lake about a kilometre away (it a private water supply as where I live there isn’t a municipal or local authority supply). The lake water is slightly colour tinged due to the bog and the pH is a bit on the acidic side. I have therefore decided that to keep things simple I would use the bottled water from the supermarket (I buy it in 5 litre size bottles). So in other words I shouldn’t need to worry about treating the water (brewing liquor) due to chlorine treatment.
I take heed of your warning to make sure the wort is well oxygenated before pitching the yeast. I certainly splashed it about with the stiring spoon prior to pitching the yeast the first time round and so luckily I didn’t have problems with stuck fermentation. It’s no harm to be reminded again though, thank you.
I’m not sure I understand “twang” though? Can you explain further?
I’m also not sure why you left the bottles outside for half a day after two days (presumably at the 21 deg C) before again returning them to a warm environment again? Is there a good reason to do this?
Sorry if my questions are showing my “greeness”, thank you for your patience.

[kendizle]

I'm just as green as you. Spent many hours reading posts on different forums, watching YouTube and speaking to staff in brewshops.
I put beer outside to help sediment settle before bottling. Outside was colder than my fridge. The process is called coldcrashing. Don't move your brew whilst it's fermenting, keep it at a constant. I'd say for that one go for about 20-21c. Had mine on a constant 19-19.5. this was probably why mine stalled.

Twang is the taste you get from tap water in home brew. You should be fine with your bottle water. There's a few posts on here about it. Definitely noticed it in my admiral's reserve.

Weirdly enough i had a couple bottles last night and it wasn't there. That definitely means that this brew really does get better with age. The clarity had really improved too.

[Joystick]

Ah, I missed that, you “cold crashed” before bottling. I had in my mind that you had racked to bottles before cold crashing.
So a new meaning for “twang” is an off taste in home brew beer and there I was thinking of elastic bands! Yes, I certainly didn’t pick up any odd taste in my Woodforde Wherry and you are right, it’s because I used bottled spring water (Aldi’s best!)
Again thank you for your knowledge input, if you are a novice then that puts me as a rank beginner.
I’m waiting for my local brew shop to re-stock glass 500ml bottles so I’m Delaying my next brew until I get sufficient bottles to rack the promised 32 pints. I have a capper and a bag of crown caps. A good idea given in a previous post in this thread was to rack a couple of PET bottles along with the glass bottles so that carbonation can be “squeeze” monitored.
I will certainly heed your suggestion to ferment at 20 to 21 deg C. May I ask did you use the hops packet that came with the kit? I have read that some people have replaced this packet with either hop pellets or the real hop heads. Again my local brew shop (in Galway) stocks various types of hops.
As soon as the brew shop has bottles in stock again I’ll take a trip down and while I’m buying the bottles I’ll see what they have as regard a yeast replacement and possibly an alternative hop.
I have moved my PET bottles of Wherry back to the cool garage after 7 days at 20 deg C for the carbonation to have properly occurred (second attempt at doing this stage). The plastic bottles are nice and firm now, I can hardly squeeze the sides of the bottles now - which bodes well.
One final question please, did your Admiral’s Reserve reach the advertised ABV? (5.5%) My first Wherry brew reached 4.2% which wasn’t far off the advertised 4.5%.
Cheers

[Manngold]

You could also use 2l empty plastic fizzy bottles. Depending on where you are you could always ask your local pub/restaurant for empty bottles. My local pub was happy for me to take what I wanted.