Cornish cream

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serum

Re: Cornish cream

Post by serum » Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:17 pm

Nice work!

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seymour
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Re: Cornish cream

Post by seymour » Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:27 pm

serum wrote:Nice work!
+1

This doesn't add much, but I've heard St Austell Black Prince and Cornish Cream are essentially the same beer. Cornish Cream was simply kegged and dispensed with nitrogen "Guinness gas", hence the extra creaminess in the mouthfeel.

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SMASH3R
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Re: Cornish cream

Post by SMASH3R » Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:52 am

Some useless musings from me below!

To gain some more clues, I have compared the actual Tribute recipe that St Austell use; they use 3200kg of pale malt and 700kg (18%) Golden Promise malt in their mash tun to achieve 4.2% abv. Adding this into brewing software in 1/1000 quantities (i.e. 3.2kg and 0.7kg) yields 21.6L of wort at 1.043 O.G. which would be required to achieve 4.2% (yeast and F.G. dependent). I got to 21.6L by playing about with the final wort volume, which is highly convenient, because this absolutely in the region of what us home brewers would target. Therefore, if you want to account for your system losses, simply adjust the ratios of ingredients up appropriately!

Luckily, in a 21.6L brew, using only a limited quantity of 500g of molasses produces about the same gravity as 500g pale malt (give or take a 0.001 gravity point or two). The same can be said for a few hundred grams of chocolate and brown malt.

By comparing the St Austell recipe, and assuming that St Austell would like to use full 25kg sacks (not half a sack!), I have fiddled about in a spreadsheet and come to the conclusion that Cornish Cream would require a combination of pale malt, chocolate malt, brown malt and molasses to weigh in at something in the range of 3375 to 3400kg of ingredients. I am going to assume 3400kg, because, why not! Making the recipe up to 3400kg is a nice round number, and tinkering around with a sack of grain is like us tinkering about with 25g of pale malt i.e. it makes no difference. I can’t imagine the brewer when coming up with the recipe thinking:

Ooooo, should I add 133 sacks of malt? Or 134?
Oooo, I’ll use 134!
No. 133!
Or maybe 133.5?
DECISIONS!!!! #-o

They would have given up brewing as they wouldn’t have been able to take the stress! :lol:


Therefore, for my future brews of this (having tried the first recipe attempt I outlined above), I will keep my recipes in the range of 3.4kg of ingredients for 21.6L of post-boil wort, excluding losses (hops). My assumptions about limited effect on gravity should hold true as long as recipe additions are in the region of those already indicated.

The upshot of all this rambling nonsense is that St Austell could use:
2200kg Pale
500kg Chocolate
200kg Brown
500kg Molasses.
All nice round numbers!

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Re: Cornish cream

Post by stokie_spaceman » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:55 pm

I seem to remember from the brewery tour in 2007, black Prince was the cask mild and cornish cream was the keg version. Nobody has mentioned Devon cream which was the Devon version. They were all the same beer. Black Prince was very rare back then. I only ever had it at gbbf a year or so later. Couldn't anywhere in Cornwall even in St Austell.

Matt12398

Re: Cornish cream

Post by Matt12398 » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:34 pm

Black Prince is a special release and one you very rarely see. It's often brewed for the annual Celtic Beer Festival held at the brewery but it wasn't there last year. They had another mild which may or not have been the same recipe.

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john luc
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Re: Cornish cream

Post by john luc » Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:34 pm

SMASH3R wrote:Some useless musings from me below!

To gain some more clues, I have compared the actual Tribute recipe that St Austell use; they use 3200kg of pale malt and 700kg (18%) Golden Promise malt in their mash tun to achieve 4.2% abv. Adding this into brewing software in 1/1000 quantities (i.e. 3.2kg and 0.7kg) yields 21.6L of wort at 1.043 O.G. which would be required to achieve 4.2% (yeast and F.G. dependent). I got to 21.6L by playing about with the final wort volume, which is highly convenient, because this absolutely in the region of what us home brewers would target. Therefore, if you want to account for your system losses, simply adjust the ratios of ingredients up appropriately!

Luckily, in a 21.6L brew, using only a limited quantity of 500g of molasses produces about the same gravity as 500g pale malt (give or take a 0.001 gravity point or two). The same can be said for a few hundred grams of chocolate and brown malt.

By comparing the St Austell recipe, and assuming that St Austell would like to use full 25kg sacks (not half a sack!), I have fiddled about in a spreadsheet and come to the conclusion that Cornish Cream would require a combination of pale malt, chocolate malt, brown malt and molasses to weigh in at something in the range of 3375 to 3400kg of ingredients. I am going to assume 3400kg, because, why not! Making the recipe up to 3400kg is a nice round number, and tinkering around with a sack of grain is like us tinkering about with 25g of pale malt i.e. it makes no difference. I can’t imagine the brewer when coming up with the recipe thinking:

Ooooo, should I add 133 sacks of malt? Or 134?
Oooo, I’ll use 134!
No. 133!
Or maybe 133.5?
DECISIONS!!!! #-o

They would have given up brewing as they wouldn’t have been able to take the stress! :lol:


Therefore, for my future brews of this (having tried the first recipe attempt I outlined above), I will keep my recipes in the range of 3.4kg of ingredients for 21.6L of post-boil wort, excluding losses (hops). My assumptions about limited effect on gravity should hold true as long as recipe additions are in the region of those already indicated.

The upshot of all this rambling nonsense is that St Austell could use:
2200kg Pale
500kg Chocolate
200kg Brown
500kg Molasses.
All nice round numbers!
Need to ask,how did this beer fare out. I want to brew a mild and as usual drawling the archive. When did you add the Molasses to the boil [-o<
Deos miscendarum discipule
http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie

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SMASH3R
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Re: Cornish cream

Post by SMASH3R » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:21 am

Hi Jon,

I didn't brew this in the end. I was in the run-up to a house move (which I am now renovating), and had gallons of delicious homebrew to crack through before the move. I haven't brewed since moving in to the new place as every spare moment has been on DIY
:bonk

It's a low gravity beer; I would just wang (a technical term) the molasses into the boil when it's chugging along.
I did also get tied up worrying about which kind of molasses to buy. Bootstrap, cooking, black, etc etc.
I'm sure St Austell would buy it by the liquid tonne or similar. I used to work at a pet food manufacturers, and we had a massive steel barrel of molasses that was used in horse food. I would imagine something relatively unrefined like that could be used. The boil would sterilise, and any gunk would fall our during fermentation?

This beer will be near the top of my list for brews to do when I start up again in the very near future (I first have to brew 70 pints of a Belgian ale for my wedding near the end of April!)

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