Belgian Candi Syrup

[robbym123]

Hey Guys

I want to have a crack at making my own Belgian Candi Syrup, using the recipe on the Sui Generis website. It requires food grade sodium hydroxide (caustic soda).

There are loads of caustic soda suppliers online, but most are only 98% pure (for soap production or cleaning), rather than the 99.9% food grade purity.

I have found a supplier http://www.apcpure.com. Minimum order is 100g (c8g required per 1kg of sugar). Only costs £2.95 but is then +£8.95 post, due to the fact it needs 'special' courier delivery as a hazardous material.

I wondered if there was anyone else on here local to me that would like to share an order, buying a 500g and sharing it a few ways would be much more economic.

You would need to be able to collect from Reigate, Surrey, as i would not want the hassle of posting a hazardous material.

Cheers

Rob

[Hanglow]

Could you not used slaked/pickling lime instead? Calcium hydroxide - it's available from indian/chinese food stores although don't ask me the brands. you just need it to raise the ph right?

edit: just googled and its called Chuna
http://theasiancookshop.co.uk/raja-chun ... 1846-p.asp

[Eric]

I'm not sure if I read that method correctly, but think it might be wise to research the subject a little further using other sources of information.

The usual method uses acid, not an alkali, to quicken the inversion process. The resulting product is then acidic which can be neutralised, commonly, using sodium bicarbonate which can easily be obtained foodsafe.

[Wonkydonkey]

Here's two links for you, it says you can skip the acid inversion I've tried both, but Yeh slaked lime, pickling lime..etc. my work of advise is do a small batch get it right first then do a bigger batch, and most of all have some fun, ps adding most things to boiling sugar makes it want to froth up and climb out of the pan,

https://joshthebrewmaster.wordpress.com ... ndi-syrup/

http://ryanbrews.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02 ... -been.html

Edit, the Ryanbrews was the most fun, and joshthebrewer, I posted the slightly wrong link, but you can find the right link from
The recipes tab. But either way is ok and I think it really depends what you want your end result to be.

[robbym123]

Guys

Many thanks for the helpful advice - looks like i have a fair bit of reading before going any further.

Cheers

Rob

[scotsloon]

I successfully use Malic Acid which can be bought from any health food shop. Just a tablespoonful for 1K of sugar.

[Wonkydonkey]

But it's the alkali/basic solution that drives the mallard reactions, the acid is for the inversion , The acid acts as a catalyst,
So it's really down to, what you want to end making, toffee, choc, figgy type candi or plain old invert candi

Edit I think this was what the op was refering to
http://suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.co.uk ... ar-ii.html

[Good Ed]

I'm not sure if I read that method correctly, but think it might be wise to research the subject a little further using other sources of information.

The usual method uses acid, not an alkali, to quicken the inversion process. The resulting product is then acidic which can be neutralised, commonly, using sodium bicarbonate which can easily be obtained foodsafe.

Eric is correct.

Sugars used in brewing come in many forms but are usually classed as Invert Sugar (made from unrefined cane sugar) and Candi Sugar (made from refined sugar). Both are invert sugars. The British brewing industry has historically used invert sugar to add flavour as well as "lusciousness" to beers. The Belgian brewers have traditionally used candi sugar to boost the alcohol content without adding extra body.

Luckie Eddie who brewed Belgian beers and used to post on the old HBF, advocated using "Silver Spoon" which is a beet sugar. Use a non stick pan and 1kg of sugar with as little water as you can manage. Bring to a boil and get to 125C to 135C then add 1/4 citric acid and continue to keep at that temperature until you reach the desired colour, this may take an hour or so depending on your dedication. Avoid boil overs by having a bowl of cold water handy and adding as necessary by the spoonful. Once you are satisfied with your product cool in a waterbath, dilute as necessary to a thick syrup and store in a container (PET bottle). On brewday bring quantity up to temperature with some wort and add half way through the boil.

In actuality you don't have to boil the sugar that long, in fact you only need to keep at temperature for so long for "invertion" to take place.

[jaroporter]

the article does suggest a 30 minute rest for inversion, but that this happens without needing the acid addition. they're just focussing on the second part of the process more. to be honest, apart from perhaps the source sugar as mentioned by Ed, i'm struggling to see the difference between the two..

[Wonkydonkey]

Not really sure why one is advocating silver spoon sugar
http://www.imperialsugar.com/sugar-101/ ... beet-sugar

I hope this helps

[Eric]

Not really sure why one is advocating silver spoon sugar
http://www.imperialsugar.com/sugar-101/ ... beet-sugar

I hope this helps

Perhaps because the Belgians traditionally made candy sugar from refined beet sugar while UK brewers historically used invert made from variously refined cane sugars. Silver Spoon make sugar from beet, Tate and Lyle from cane.

I'm wondering if the diverging opinions here are due to considering different processes which can be carried out in one operation, the inversion of sugar and the Maillard reaction?

[MTW]

A worthy bump of this topic from January...

Has anyone used Calcium Hydroxide/slaked lime/edible lime to make candi sugar/syrup yet? The guys on the web who really *seem* to know what they're doing with this, seem to suggest that the common practice of adding an acid to aid the inversion just stops or mutes the maillard reactions that we are often looking for. See here So I want to have a go with the lime and I'm looking for experiences.

A really helpful lady in a local asian food shop is getting me a tub of Calcium Hydroxide (probably theRaja Chuna linked by Hanglow in an earlier post) and it will only cost me about £1. Much better than having to fork out a tenner inc p&p on what I can see on the net (for food grade), for an unnecessarily big amount. I am assuming the asian food stuff must be food grade, being sold for cooking.

My only experience so far is just inverting a bag of sugar for half an hour with some cream of tartar, darkening it just to light amber, adding back about 10% as water to keep it as a syrup, and adding it during the fermentation of my current tripel. I want to produce something more like Candisyrup Inc's D-180 to stick in a Rochefort-like brew. Is it just as easy to keep a darkened, Maillarded, sugar as a syrup by adding back some water, or does the 140-150C range present problems with crystals forming as it cools? I would prefer to keep it as a syrup (in a Kilner jar) for easy addition during fermentation.

Any comments, most welcome, and I hope the OP will excuse me as the thread is quite old.

[Wonkydonkey]

Yeh, I've done 2 or 3 batches, they've all come out different, but that's cause I didn't do it the same every time, I guess I was experimenting but that was the good part cause if I mucked it up, it Was only a kg of sugar

One of the batches I added somthing (I can't really remember what, prob lime and no added water ) to much/wrong time and it just went like honey comb, just bubbles and bubbles, but I still used it in a RIS, which has had 2wks in the FV right now and needs to come out,

Anyhow one of the links I posted says about re melting candi and then putting in a jar, if you read the comments bits, someone says/asks can you just add some more water to the produce after hard crack temp, and skip the cooling and re melting.

I'd say you could do this. but it's knowing the amount of water in your final product..
the reason honey keeps for so long is it only has about 18% water, if you get a little over 20% water then wild yeasts can use the product. So if you were to use it fairly quickly I guess it be ok but if you were to keep it you may run the risk of it fermenting.

Edit ad dlink and comment:
https://joshthebrewmaster.wordpress.com ... ndi-syrup/

From comments 7 & 8 comment 9 links to lifefermented and some more stuff about it.
Thanks for this great post! One question though. Is there a reason for starting with crystalized candi sugar in making syrup? Could one just stop after inverting and caramelizing in the process you presented in your earlier post (ie not bringing it to hard-crack

Honestly I was looking to only make the candi sugar at first. However I decided to create some candi syrup in order to ensure that integration in the wort would go much faster.
As far as getting candi syrup from reconstituting candi sugar with water or stopping before the hard crack temperature is reached – I don’t think there’s that much difference as the different stages typically denote water content of the substance and sugar crystal arrangement. When in the hard crack state there is roughly 99% sugar content to water when reconstituting the candi sugar into syrup you have to reintroduce water to the substance anyway- so it may be a moot point.

[Eric]

Without wanting to pour cold water on the idea of making candi sugar with a powerful alkali, I'm far from convinced it is of greater merit than using acid for the same purpose.

Inverting sugar with acid is most normally done by acidifying dissolved sugar to about pH 2 when at about 70C. The acidification speeds up the Maillard Reaction shortening the time and reducing the temperature needed to achieve the objective. When the process reaches the desired point the mixture is neutralised to slow or stop further conversion. As far as I can find, it is common to use hydrochloric acid for acidification and sodium (bi)carbonate to neutralise the finished product to pH 5.0 resulting in a small amount of sodium chloride in the final mixture.

I would assume, but don't know, that by using calcium hydroxide to achieve a similar time saving might be to raise pH of the mixture to about 12.0. Is this afterwards neutralised and if so, with what to what?

With the accepted pH range for a mash being between 5.2 and 5.6, boiled wort then becomes about pH 5.0 and after fermentation the finished beer between pH 4.0 and 3.8 depending upon style, process and yeast used. It is probably worth measuring the influence of sugar made using caustic on pH to know what effect it has on the rest of the process.

[MTW]

Thanks both

Wonky - as regards any concern over wild yeast or nasties getting going because of adding back water, I am talking about adding the water while the mixture is still well above 100C; indeed, the roughly 10% I added at the end, cold from the tap, in my one batch so far, did not cool the mixture below 100C. I think it was still around 105C when I poured it into the Kilner jar, which I had stood in a pan of boiling water up to that point anyway. By the time I've tightened the lid a while later, I don't think anything nasty is going to have survived in there. I may even use boiling water as the top up next time.

Eric - I'm keen on your thoughts on this, especially if there were to be any detrimental effect from pH, but my very limited understanding so far is this:

The purpose here is not to invert a particularly large portion of the sugar, but to promote the Maillard reaction. The stuff I'm reading on wiki here, and on the Suis Generis page(s) is that the Maillard reaction occurs more readily in an alkaline environment, and between around 135-160C, depending which exact source you believe. According to further comments on another Suis Generis page (see his response to the Brulosophy experiment low down that page) the limited 8 to 10% of sugar that will be inverted in around 30 minutes by heat alone (125-135C) and without an acid, will still have enough reducing sugars to react with a touch of DME in the mixture to get the Maillard going - and that (it seems) is stronger for having an alkaline solution added. He says that adding an acid could invert up to 75% of the sugar, but that it would be detrimental to the Maillard effect, and is not really the point.

That said, I understand that we *can* get Maillard reactions in the brew kettle, which contains a mildly acidic wort at a maximum of 100C. Maybe it's a question of rates of reaction and different properties. Do you have a source for acidification speeding up the Maillard reaction please? That would seem at odds with what I'm reading.

...and if anyone else has made candi sugar/syrup with an alkaline and an amino acid/protein source, rather than acid... I'd love to hear!