Belgian Candi Syrup

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Wonkydonkey
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Re: Belgian Candi Syrup

Post by Wonkydonkey » Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:26 pm

The think I find intresting is, and I can't say I've read many peeps views on this subject, although it's a very simple reaction.
if an acid is used to help invert (the acid is catalyst, which makes the reaction go faster and is still there at the end). By adding an alkali (pickling lime in my case) first it would need/want to react with the acid , and then as the solution becomes more alkaline by adding a bit more lime, it would then help drive the mallard reaction, the only problem I see is lot of bubbles being made, in the boiling sugar, and a boil over if one is not to careful
There are many ways to get from A to B, it's just which way you want try, :wink: I'm always willing to try and take a shorter route and see if it's a quicker way.
And like most things your, mileage may vary .

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Eric
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Re: Belgian Candi Syrup

Post by Eric » Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:52 pm

MTW wrote:Thanks both

Wonky - as regards any concern over wild yeast or nasties getting going because of adding back water, I am talking about adding the water while the mixture is still well above 100C; indeed, the roughly 10% I added at the end, cold from the tap, in my one batch so far, did not cool the mixture below 100C. I think it was still around 105C when I poured it into the Kilner jar, which I had stood in a pan of boiling water up to that point anyway. By the time I've tightened the lid a while later, I don't think anything nasty is going to have survived in there. I may even use boiling water as the top up next time.

Eric - I'm keen on your thoughts on this, especially if there were to be any detrimental effect from pH, but my very limited understanding so far is this:

The purpose here is not to invert a particularly large portion of the sugar, but to promote the Maillard reaction. The stuff I'm reading on wiki here, and on the Suis Generis page(s) is that the Maillard reaction occurs more readily in an alkaline environment, and between around 135-160C, depending which exact source you believe. According to further comments on another Suis Generis page (see his response to the Brulosophy experiment low down that page) the limited 8 to 10% of sugar that will be inverted in around 30 minutes by heat alone (125-135C) and without an acid, will still have enough reducing sugars to react with a touch of DME in the mixture to get the Maillard going - and that (it seems) is stronger for having an alkaline solution added. He says that adding an acid could invert up to 75% of the sugar, but that it would be detrimental to the Maillard effect, and is not really the point.

That said, I understand that we *can* get Maillard reactions in the brew kettle, which contains a mildly acidic wort at a maximum of 100C. Maybe it's a question of rates of reaction and different properties. Do you have a source for acidification speeding up the Maillard reaction please? That would seem at odds with what I'm reading.

...and if anyone else has made candi sugar/syrup with an alkaline and an amino acid/protein source, rather than acid... I'd love to hear!
Maybe not everything I've written is correct, but this from a firm that makes the stuff might help.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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SMASH3R
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Re: Belgian Candi Syrup

Post by SMASH3R » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:20 pm

I do this for my Belgian brews.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=114837

Seems to give good results for me :beer:

MTW
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Re: Belgian Candi Syrup

Post by MTW » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:40 am

SMASH3R wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:20 pm
I do this for my Belgian brews.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=114837

Seems to give good results for me :beer:
^^^Useful link and good that they tell you exactly how to keep it as a syrup. So that's the DAP method, where the DAP provides the acid and the protein. It sounds like good results from that then and worth a try.

If I am to believe the Suis Generis stuff about Maillard working better in an alkaline solution, then I'm tempted to do a bit of a comparison test of methods at some point: acid; DAP alone; alkali + DME; part-invert sugar and DME (no acid or alkali).

Trouble is, I got that Raja Chuna 'edible lime' mentioned earlier, and it says "FOR EXTERNAL USE ONLY" on the back, despite being sold for use in cookery! Tried emailing one retailer, but no reply. [if anyone can google contact for the producer better than me, then please PM!] I suspect it is fine, because of what's listed as in it, but maybe there's a purity issue...

Seems to me that just putting say 10% invert sugar in the mix and using DME would avoid any concerns about my 'dodgy' calcium hydroxide, while keeping the solution less acidic than by using an acid... but the proof of the pudding will be in the tasting, and if that DAP method works well...

Anyone tried any of this since the OP's original post?
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