Old Beers & Brewing

Try some of these great recipes out, or share your favourite brew with other forumees!
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EddtheBrew
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Old Beers & Brewing

Post by EddtheBrew » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:03 am

Hi All ,
I'm a brewer and brewing historian, currently working on a book on old beers & brewing; I've got quite a few recipies , mostly from the north of England , but a few from Burton, Scotland and London if any members are interested, drop me a message and I'd be happy to send some out !!
Breweries include :
Allsopp's , Boddingtons , Cornbrook , Chester Northgate, Greenall's (St Helens) , Magee Marshall , Walker's of Warrington (up to 1924) , Henry Bentley & Co. ( Bentley's Yorkshire Breweries) , Tetley's and quite a few others !!
Cheers ,
Edd

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Jim
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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by Jim » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:38 am

Welcome to JBK Edd. :)

Sounds like a great project you're working on - I'm sure JBK members will be very interested in those recipes!
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Philip K. Dick

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orlando
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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by orlando » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:42 am

For my 21st I was bought shares in Greenalls so would be interested in a Bitter recipe, any idea of what yeast would work?
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Kernel Bogey (Reprise)
Conditioning: St. Petersburg (RIS) White On Blonde
Drinking: Mild In The Country, Summer Son, Duke Of Jarl
Up Next: Peaches (Peach IPA)
Planning: Summer drinking beer.

Dave S
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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by Dave S » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:59 am

orlando wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:42 am
For my 21st I was bought shares in Greenalls so would be interested in a Bitter recipe, any idea of what yeast would work?
I'd be interested in that too. You never see the name here any more, and to be honest they didn't have a very good reputation the last few decades they were brewing. I'm sure earlier times would have been different.
Best wishes

Dave

EddtheBrew
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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by EddtheBrew » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:59 pm

Hi all ,
the only Greenall' s recipies that I've got are from the Hall St , St Helens brewery which closed down Ca 1972 , which was always recconed to be the better of the two breweries that Greenalls owned (rather than taken over by) mine are from the 1780's & 1862-4 period , only three basic types , Strong Ale , Porter & Bitter Beer , all at least 1- 1.5% abv north of 5% !,
I'm not sure what system you're all using , so I'll pop the recipies into a % of grist , and IBU requirements along with mashing etc recommendations , not sure of how to upload docs to this forum , but I'd be happy to email them out , my address is : eddmather9@gmail.com,
Cheers ,
Edd

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orlando
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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by orlando » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:35 pm

If you're willing to copy and paste into a post or send by PM. Mine is a 3V set up grist % is fine and any info on water treatment would be ideal. 1862-64 sounds realistic. Porter and or Bitter.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Kernel Bogey (Reprise)
Conditioning: St. Petersburg (RIS) White On Blonde
Drinking: Mild In The Country, Summer Son, Duke Of Jarl
Up Next: Peaches (Peach IPA)
Planning: Summer drinking beer.

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Dennis King
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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by Dennis King » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:18 pm

orlando wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:35 pm
If you're willing to copy and paste into a post or send by PM. Mine is a 3V set up grist % is fine and any info on water treatment would be ideal. 1862-64 sounds realistic. Porter and or Bitter.
It would be good to see some of these recipes.

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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by EddtheBrew » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:14 pm

Hi All ,
I`ll copy and paste the 1860`s Greenall`s Hall St stuff : Bitter Beer and Porter in the next few days , and Ill be popping an Archibald Arroll 60/- Pale Ale up there as well (2 versions ) which I transcribed from a brewers report on the Alloa brewery for a shareholder (Col Walker , of Walker`s of Warrington) by Robert Hutton in 1916 ; the original recipie , as brewed when Hutton visited , and his reccomendations as to the improvement of the 60/- Pale .
I`ve only got some Drybrough , Robert Younger and a couple of Maclay`s records which I haven`t gone into much as yet , but here`s a nice Magee Marshall Government Ale from 1917 to whet everyone`s whistle ; happy mashing guys !!

Magee`s
Government Ale
OG 38.5 FG 7.5 ABV 3.7%
Malt ;
Maris Otter 90 %
Cane Sugar (White / Golden) 10 % @ C/up + 75-80 mins
Hops ; IBU COPPER : 1.5 Hours
East Kents 17 (1ST Charge, @ +30 / 1.028
Bramling X 14 (2Nd Charge , @ + 70 / 1.033- 1.034 ,
allow 15 mis @ the end of the boil before adding the hop back / stand hops
8% of the whole Hops weight ( 50/50) to stand hops (1/2 hr stand)
Dry Hop 1 oz per barrel (east kents) (Wood)
½ g per 5 L (Metal / Plastic
Mash Directions Ratio : 2.620L/kg Mash In
1.610 L/kg Underlet
Mash Temp: 150f , RAISE TO 154 f @ + 30
Mash Length : 1 ¾ Hours
Sparge Temp : 165-6 f (START AT appx 1:55 HRS )Ratio : 3.616L/KG

PITCHING & FERMENTATION ;
Pitch with 1.75 g per litre , then drop to second fv after 1/3 of the projected gravity loss , re pitch with 1.5 g per litre .
Temperatures ; Pitch: 59 f , Top Heat : 64-66f (@ drop to 2Nd vessel), cool to 64 f in 2nd fv .
Rousing: every 6 - 8 Hours after pitch , until dropped to 2 nd vessel , then every 12 hours until 1.013 (stopping gravity, cool to say 10 f below pitching.
ALLOW A 2 DAY DIACETYL REST @ 54 – 55 F BEFORE RACKING @- 1.009.5

(prime up a minimum of @ 24 hours before racking off to 1.010.5 )
Maturation : Mature @ 54 F for two weeks , then serve & enjoy!!
WATER TREATMENT : A Burton water profile would , be the most suitable for this beer .
Yeast Strain : Any northern English type , Lancs / Yorks (NOT A Yorks Sq strain though) which is capable of getting down to 1.007 ½

EddtheBrew
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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by EddtheBrew » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:17 pm

Hi All ,
Here`s the Greenall`s Bitter Beer from 1863 .
Water Treatment : Burtonise all brewing liquor prior to mashing in .
Happy Mashing

Cheers ,

Edd

Recipe Copyright : E I MATHER 2018
-------------------------------------------------------------------
T & G GREENALL ; Hall St Brewery St Helens
Bitter Beer , March 23Rd 1863
OG : 1.063 Racking Gravity : 1.016 F.G : 1.013
IBU : 58 – 60 ABV: 6½ %
MALT
Pale Ale Malt 70 %
(Chevalier / Constable)
Pale Ale Malt (as above , @ 6.5 ebc 30 %
(Sub : Mild Ale Malt )

MASHING
1St Mash Heat: 148 Fahrenheit @ 2.413 L/KG
(at mash in , until + 30 minutes)
2Nd Mash Heat : Raise at + 30 Minutes to 152-3 Fahrenheit , at a ratio of 1.650 L/KG (@ + 30 - + 120)
3Rd Mash Heat : 158 Fahrenheit @ + 120 - +150 minutes , @ 1.705 L/KG
Set Taps / Start Run Off @ + 150 minutes .
SPARGING
Sparge @ + 160 - +165 Minutes and at a ratio , of 3.700 L/KG at 165 – 170 Fahrenheit .

COPPER & HOPS
A 1½ Hour Boil , with the first charge @ + 0 minutes ,
2Nd charge @ + 35 Minutes , and a third @ + 65 – 70 Minutes.
HOPS :
FIRST CHARGE;
Cluster 10 IBU @ 1.052
Mittelfruh 10 IBU @ 1.052

SECOND CHARGE
Mittelfruh 20 IBU @ 1.055
THIRD CHARGE
Fuggles 10 IBU @ 1.061
(Preferably French)
East Kents 5 IBU @ 1.061
Bramling Cross 3 IBU @ 1.061

YEAST & PITCHING etc ;
Pitch with a Lancashire type strain @ 59 Fahrenheit ,
At 4.25 g/litre @ 1.063 , and allow no higher than 66 Fahrenheit , Rouse 24 hours after pitching , and every 10 hours afterwards until 1.023 .
Stop fermentation by cooling to 60 Fahrenheit @ 1.020,the to 58 Fahrenheit .
And give a final rouse @ 1.018 when @ 58 , and allow a 2 day diacetyl rest @ 58 before racking to a barrel.

RACKING & MATURATION
Rack @ 1.016 , at 57-58 F , and add (25 L brew) , racking hops as below ;
East Kents 8 g
Mittelfruh 8 g
Mature for a minimum of 1-1½ months for DRAUGHT consumption , and 2 months for a bottled product before bottling , then age for a minimum of 1 month before q.c !!
Mature in cask as above , but only add the finished product finings a minimum of 48 hours before drinking , rolling the container well before stillaging.
FININGS : Copper : say 8 – 12 g @ +120 – 125 minutes into the boil
Barrel : Do a finings test .
"It was a woman who drove me to drink and I forgot to write and thank her ". W. C Fields

f00b4r
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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by f00b4r » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:28 pm

It would be interesting to see the Boddingtons Bitter recipes from the 70's and 80's.

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orlando
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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by orlando » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:58 pm

Some interesting information there. For a start it is clear that Chevalier and Constable (not heard of the latter but former is revived and available from the Malt Miller) were barley strains that were poorly modified so the brewer had to finish them in the brewery by mash stepping. If you use a modern malt instead there would be no need. I've never seen hop additions based around gravity before. Mashing for 2.5 hours suggests either they didn't know it converted in less time or a poorly modified malt gives up its goodness a lot more slowly.
Preferring to use French Fuggles was an eye opener too. The asonishingly low pitching temperature is a surprise and I wonder if modern yeasts could cope that low without stalling. You would probably need something close to the original, no idea if there is a modern equivalent. Rousing the wort/beer 24 hours in then every 10 hours may account for it. The yeast must have been fairly torpid at those temperatures and I assume it was either difficult for them to artificially raise the temperature or the yeast threw some strange esters they didn't want if they did. Suspect it free rose to 66F. A diacetyl rest at low temps is another surprise, I always understood you raised temperature to do that. I would boil copper finings for a minimum of 10 minutes, 5 may not be quite enough.

Really interesting stuff, thanks for posting.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Kernel Bogey (Reprise)
Conditioning: St. Petersburg (RIS) White On Blonde
Drinking: Mild In The Country, Summer Son, Duke Of Jarl
Up Next: Peaches (Peach IPA)
Planning: Summer drinking beer.

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Jim
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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by Jim » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:37 pm

I'm moving this thread to the 'Beer Recipes' forum to preserve it from the Guestbook's auto-delete.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Philip K. Dick

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EddtheBrew
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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by EddtheBrew » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:52 pm

Hi Jim ,
Yup , a free rise to 66°F and you're pretty much Bob on with the yeast hypothesis, it would also help with hop taste and aroma .
I've seen pitching temperatures up to 66-8°F , which is bloody high for a Pale beer historically (Tetley's, around 1844-60), then they would have attemperated as required for the beer & style , another thing is , that as a rule , the higher the temp , the lesser the pitching rate eg 2 1/4 lbs per barrel @ 60°F , to 1 1/4 lbs/brl @65-6 on an OG of 24lbs/brl ,
I'll try and get a Walker's(Dallam Lane Brewery, Warrington) Bitter from the 1875-6 XP book up next , as it's a not more simple than the T&G Greenall Bitter Beer to do ,
Cheers
Edd
"It was a woman who drove me to drink and I forgot to write and thank her ". W. C Fields

EddtheBrew
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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by EddtheBrew » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:38 pm

f00b4r wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:28 pm
It would be interesting to see the Boddingtons Bitter recipes from the 70's and 80's.
Hi ,
I've only got up to 1955 with the Boddingtons recipies , I'll upload a list (1901-1955) of the Boddingtons recipies that I've converted, along with the'55 Bitter tomorrow when I get to the library,
Cheers
Edd
"It was a woman who drove me to drink and I forgot to write and thank her ". W. C Fields

f00b4r
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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by f00b4r » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:55 pm

EddtheBrew wrote:
f00b4r wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:28 pm
It would be interesting to see the Boddingtons Bitter recipes from the 70's and 80's.
Hi ,
I've only got up to 1955 with the Boddingtons recipies , I'll upload a list (1901-1955) of the Boddingtons recipies that I've converted, along with the'55 Bitter tomorrow when I get to the library,
Cheers
Edd
Cheers.

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