Old Beers & Brewing

Try some of these great recipes out, or share your favourite brew with other forumees!
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scuppeteer
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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by scuppeteer » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:58 am

These are some great recipes, but I take it they're your interpretation of them and not the actual from the brewers notes.
Dave Berry


Can't be arsed to keep changing this bit, so, drinking some beer and wanting to brew many more!

Sir, you are drunk! Yes madam, and you are ugly, but in the morning I shall be sober! - WSC

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MashTim
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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by MashTim » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:21 am

Stockport’s my home town

Do you know what the fermentation vessels were? We all know about Yorkshire squares, what were other breweries using? Keep up the good work

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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by EddtheBrew » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:38 am

scuppeteer wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:58 am
These are some great recipes, but I take it they're your interpretation of them and not the actual from the brewers notes.
Hi Dave ,
Thanks for the comments, all of my recipies have called for the interpretation of actual brewer`s production records , and sometimes there`s a lot of information , and sometimes as in the case of the T & G Greenall`s beers , just weight of materials , Gravity and if you`re lucky ; a brewlength !! .
If I see any Brewer`s Notebooks , rather than Brewing Ledgers / Books , i`ll devour every last bit of info in there , as that`s where you can pick up further info that might not be in the Brewing Ledger etc.
I know that there`s a couple of notebooks of Head Brewers in the Kent History Centre , I think that they`re from Fremlin`s (Maidstone Brewery) .
Another thing I`ll allways look at is , any Hop & Malt ledgers , as I know how much info can be in there from looking at Magee`s Hop & Malt ledger 1899-1927 that`s in my collection .
Cheers & Happy Mashing

Edd Mather
"It was a woman who drove me to drink and I forgot to write and thank her ". W. C Fields

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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by EddtheBrew » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:41 am

MashTim wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:21 am
Stockport’s my home town

Do you know what the fermentation vessels were? We all know about Yorkshire squares, what were other breweries using? Keep up the good work
Hi Tim ,
Some breweries were using Squares , Open Squares , Rounds and , some had Union systems though mostly in Burton on Trent ,
I`ll be posting up the Richard Clarke 1/4 Bitter Beer when the notebook turns up !!
Cheers
Edd
"It was a woman who drove me to drink and I forgot to write and thank her ". W. C Fields

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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by EddtheBrew » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:44 am

Hi All ,
Here`s the T & G Greenall Porter from 1862 , hope you all enjoy it !!
Cheers & Happy Mashing
Edd

Copyright E I Mather 2018
T & G Greenall ; Hall St Brewery , St Helens
Porter 21St November 1862
OG : 1.067.5 Racking Grav : 1.017 Final Grav : 1.014
40 IBU 5½ % A.B.V
MALT
Vienna Malt ( Weyermann) 58 %
Pale Ale Malt (Chevalier) 14 %
Brown Malt (Heritage Variety / Diastaticaly Active) 24 %
Black Malt 4 %
Mashing & Sparging
A 1¾ Hour mash , 1St Temp @ 147 F with a liquor to grist ratio of 2.685 L/kg ; 2Nd Temp @ 154 F @ 0.865 L/kg .
Sparging : 160 F @ 4.500 L/kg @ + 110 – 115 Minutes .
Hops & Copper
First Charge @ + 15 Minutes , a second at + 30 , and a third at + 70 Minutes , add 12 – 15 g copper finings @ + 90 Mins , Let Off @ + 105 Minutes .
Quality IBU CHARGE GRAVITY
Hallertau Mittelfruh 20 1 1.056
Hallertau Mittelfruh 10 2 1.059
East Kents 5 3 1.064
Brambling X 5 3 1.064
Add 4.5% East Kents to the copper @ Let off +15 Mins(Whole Hop Weight %) for a ½ hour stand before cooling to pitching heat .
Copyright E I Mather 2018
T & G Greenall , Porter 1862 (Cont`d)
Yeast , Pitching and Fermentation
Pitch with a Lancashire type strain at 4 g of live barm per Litre , at 61 F , and allow a free rise to 70 F , Rouse @ + 24 from pitching and every 1.010 of gravity drop , until 1.019 , and stop by crash cooling over the next 24 hours to 60 F (@ 1.017 at 60 F) , rack at that value)).
MATURATION
I would recommend that this beer be matured for at least two to three months , adding finings @ tapping – 48 – 60 hours before drinking , rolling well and stillaging afterwards.
"It was a woman who drove me to drink and I forgot to write and thank her ". W. C Fields

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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by EddtheBrew » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:55 pm

EddtheBrew wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:44 am
Hi All ,
Here`s the T & G Greenall Porter from 1862 , hope you all enjoy it !!
Cheers & Happy Mashing
Edd

Copyright E I Mather 2018
T & G Greenall ; Hall St Brewery , St Helens
Porter 21St November 1862
OG : 1.067.5 Racking Grav : 1.017 Final Grav : 1.014
40 IBU 5½ % A.B.V
MALT
Vienna Malt ( Weyermann) 58 %
Pale Ale Malt (Chevalier) 14 %
Brown Malt (Heritage Variety / Diastaticaly Active) 24 %
Black Malt 4 %
Mashing & Sparging
A 1¾ Hour mash , 1St Temp @ 147 F with a liquor to grist ratio of 2.685 L/kg@ goods in ~ + 30 minutes ; 2Nd Temp @ 154 F @ 0.865 L/kg @ +30~+105 minutes.
Sparging : 160 F @ 4.500 L/kg @ + 115 Minutes .
Hops & Copper
First Charge @ + 15 Minutes , a second at + 30 , and a third at + 70 Minutes , add 12 – 15 g copper finings @ + 90 Mins , Let Off @ + 105 Minutes .
Quality IBU CHARGE GRAVITY
Hallertau Mittelfruh 20 1 1.056
Hallertau Mittelfruh 10 2 1.059
East Kents 5 3 1.064
Brambling X 5 3 1.064
Add 4.5% East Kents to the copper @ Let off +15 Mins(Whole Hop Weight %) for a ½ hour stand before cooling to pitching heat .
Copyright E I Mather 2018
T & G Greenall , Porter 1862 (Cont`d)
Yeast , Pitching and Fermentation
Pitch with a Lancashire type strain at 4 g of live barm per Litre , at 61 F , and allow a free rise to 70 F , Rouse @ + 24 from pitching and every 1.010 of gravity drop , until 1.019 , and stop by crash cooling over the next 24 hours to 60 F (@ 1.017 at 60 F) , rack at that value)).
MATURATION
I would recommend that this beer be matured for at least two to three months , adding finings @ tapping – 48 – 60 hours before drinking , rolling well and stillaging afterwards.
"It was a woman who drove me to drink and I forgot to write and thank her ". W. C Fields

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scuppeteer
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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by scuppeteer » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:59 pm

EddtheBrew wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:38 am
scuppeteer wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:58 am
These are some great recipes, but I take it they're your interpretation of them and not the actual from the brewers notes.
Hi Dave ,
Thanks for the comments, all of my recipies have called for the interpretation of actual brewer`s production records , and sometimes there`s a lot of information , and sometimes as in the case of the T & G Greenall`s beers , just weight of materials , Gravity and if you`re lucky ; a brewlength !! .
If I see any Brewer`s Notebooks , rather than Brewing Ledgers / Books , i`ll devour every last bit of info in there , as that`s where you can pick up further info that might not be in the Brewing Ledger etc.
I know that there`s a couple of notebooks of Head Brewers in the Kent History Centre , I think that they`re from Fremlin`s (Maidstone Brewery) .
Another thing I`ll allways look at is , any Hop & Malt ledgers , as I know how much info can be in there from looking at Magee`s Hop & Malt ledger 1899-1927 that`s in my collection .
Cheers & Happy Mashing

Edd Mather

I'm just being a purist with some of the hop additions that's all. Several of the varieties listed weren't even about then. :lol:

I have actually looked at the Fremlins records, as you can imagine the early ones are a mine field. All in code, so you can only guess at what's going on, but it's not until you get to the 1920/30's when they actually become readable to the layman. They have over 100 years of records at the Kent County archive, and as they own them you don't have to worry about copyright, just ask for permission to republish. A fascinating read either way. I must make an effort and go back at some point.
Dave Berry


Can't be arsed to keep changing this bit, so, drinking some beer and wanting to brew many more!

Sir, you are drunk! Yes madam, and you are ugly, but in the morning I shall be sober! - WSC

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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by EddtheBrew » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:31 pm

Hi Dave ,
I've used more modern varieties, as a replacement for extinct, or rarely available ones ( with adjustment for qualities such as a/a % etc ) .
And on the code & symbols thing , it sounds like the earlier Fremlin's records similar the Ward's of Sheffield records I've seen ! , then there's the joys of Georgian and Victorian brewers handwriting .
One thing I must say is , when calculating bitterness eg Lbs of hops per qtr of malt , don't include Flaked maize , Crystal and other mash tun adjuncts such as Patent (Black Malt ) & Roast Barley etc.
Cheers
Edd
"It was a woman who drove me to drink and I forgot to write and thank her ". W. C Fields

bobsbeer

Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by bobsbeer » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:49 pm

EddtheBrew wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:44 am
Hi All ,
Here`s the T & G Greenall Porter from 1862 , hope you all enjoy it !!
Cheers & Happy Mashing
Edd

Copyright E I Mather 2018
T & G Greenall ; Hall St Brewery , St Helens
Porter 21St November 1862

How can you copyright a beer that you have plagiarised from 1862?

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scuppeteer
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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by scuppeteer » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:21 pm

bobsbeer wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:49 pm
How can you copyright a beer that you have plagiarised from 1862?
Quite easily I'm guessing. Ed has done the research and interpreted his findings into (and no offence meant) a best guess and something useable for other brewers. Unless you have a complete understanding of the coding used by brewers 150 years ago you wouldn't have a clue where to start. I would imagine this has taken Ed hours and hours of reading to get to these recipes. As with any historian, you can copyright your findings but also index where the original information has come from.
Dave Berry


Can't be arsed to keep changing this bit, so, drinking some beer and wanting to brew many more!

Sir, you are drunk! Yes madam, and you are ugly, but in the morning I shall be sober! - WSC

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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by EddtheBrew » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:43 pm

Bobsbeer,
Have you asked the same question of others who publish their interpretations of old beer recipies? Or , do you think all books ,articles and other published works which include historical beer recipies are plagiaristic by their very nature ? .
As Scuppeteer commented , its taken me years of research to get to the point where I'm able to interpret historical brewing records , and my work on the beers of Joshua Tetley & Sons 1844-1916 alone has taken me eight months to interpret and , convert to an understandable formula for home brewers to use .
I copyright my interpretation of old brewing records to preserve my intellectual property rights.
Regards
Edd
"It was a woman who drove me to drink and I forgot to write and thank her ". W. C Fields

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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by EddtheBrew » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:05 pm

scuppeteer wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:21 pm
bobsbeer wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:49 pm
How can you copyright a beer that you have plagiarised from 1862?
Quite easily I'm guessing. Ed has done the research and interpreted his findings into (and no offence meant) a best guess and something useable for other brewers. Unless you have a complete understanding of the coding used by brewers 150 years ago you wouldn't have a clue where to start. I would imagine this has taken Ed hours and hours of reading to get to these recipes. As with any historian, you can copyright your findings but also index where the original information has come from.
Hi Dave ,
Thanks for the pointer , I'll be including sources on most of my future recipe posts , although some are , from private collections and not publicly available ( I'll be clear on this where possible)
Cheers
Edd
"It was a woman who drove me to drink and I forgot to write and thank her ". W. C Fields

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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by Manngold » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:21 pm

Edd, don’t let the above bother you. Some great info, thanks so much.

As someone who loves Fullers beers, which recipe would you suggest I try. I love the idea of brewing something from the past. Any pointers?

bobsbeer

Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by bobsbeer » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:43 pm

EddtheBrew wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:43 pm
Bobsbeer,
Have you asked the same question of others who publish their interpretations of old beer recipies? Or , do you think all books ,articles and other published works which include historical beer recipies are plagiaristic by their very nature ? .
As Scuppeteer commented , its taken me years of research to get to the point where I'm able to interpret historical brewing records , and my work on the beers of Joshua Tetley & Sons 1844-1916 alone has taken me eight months to interpret and , convert to an understandable formula for home brewers to use .
I copyright my interpretation of old brewing records to preserve my intellectual property rights.
Regards
Edd
Don't get me wrong Edd, I appreciate the work you have put into interpreting the historical recipes, and you have clearly been dedicated to the task of studying historical brewing. Clearly you have done a great deal of work, and I do not in any way denigrate that work. Where I question your use of copyright is your publication of the recipe. Is it your original work? It may well be an original recipe, but to then claim that it is a copy or clone of an earlier recipe makes me question if it is your original work to copyright.

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Re: Old Beers & Brewing

Post by EddtheBrew » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:05 am

Hi Bob ,
Thanks for your reply .
Copyright infringement is, one of the reasons I only look at defunct breweries,and recipies from before around 1970 or so ; (whose records are publicly accessible , where those records still exist , and some from private collections)
Best Regards & Happy Mashing!
Edd
"It was a woman who drove me to drink and I forgot to write and thank her ". W. C Fields

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