rapid pressure drop in cornie

[lancsSteve]

Just dropped my roggenbier into a cornie after a week in a normla pressure barrel (waiting for the cornie to arrive!)

I'm running a midget widget with pressure manifold and have charged this up to 32psi (brewmath recommednation for wheat beer which is HIGHLY carbonated)

The pressure is dropping real fast - down to 24psi after a few hours...

Not able to accurately take the temp (is there an easy way?) it's in a room and has been a fairly stable 15-18C ambient sp this seems VERY quick as a pressure drop - hopefully absorption or do I have a leak? The cornie arrived pressurised (from norm) then cleaned it with soda crystals, charged it and seemed to get a 'backfire' of liquid... Then sanitised with no-rinse iodophor and lost some pressure then... Any foolproof ways to check this?

Steve

Also - any cunning way of bottling from a cornie? Want to bottle half this brew, had thought it had stuck at 1.020 but seemed to drop last few degrees OK to 1.016 (target was 1.015) so should I be priming too - or just OK to keep it under pressure in order to carbonate? retty new to Cornies as you can probably guess!

[lancsSteve]

With ambient temps staying the same, so no reason for liquid to change, has dropped from 32pai to 16 in a few hours. So where/how to check for leaks and how to sort?

as it arrived pressurised it can presumably only be something I've done from cleaning and sanitising. can you overfill a corny? What could I have knackered or not cleaned?

And what rate of co2 absorption should I expect as it's pump release to add pressure rather than constant line pressure with regulator so will presumably need pressure adding as co2 is absorbed but not at this rate surely?!?!

[StrangeBrew]

A couple of things to check...

Once Co2 is added are you disconnecting the Widget World system or leaving it connected? This system only needs to be connected when you top up, disconnect when not in use.
Are the poppets in the in/out posts seating/sealing? If they're not then depress them and release again.
Is the PRV screwed in and seated correctly? This could be loose or the rubber seal could be worn.
Is the lid 'O' ring in good condition and causing a good tight seal?
The dip tube 'O' rings may also need replacing.

As with any equipment bought second hand it pays to test that it works before you use it
'O' rings on a Cornelius keg are easy and cheap to change and PRV & Poppets can also be replaced if needed.

[lancsSteve]

A couple of things to check...

Once Co2 is added are you disconnecting the Widget World system or leaving it connected? This system only needs to be connected when you top up, disconnect when not in use.

Was leaving it connected - have now disconnected and then reconnected after a while to see if pressure has dropped (it had)

Are the poppets in the in/out posts seating/sealing? If they're not then depress them and release again.

Seem to be fine - gave them a little press (and got a facefull of beer - lol) and seem to seat fine...

Is the PRV screwed in and seated correctly? This could be loose or the rubber seal could be worn.

Seems fine

Is the lid 'O' ring in good condition and causing a good tight seal?
The dip tube 'O' rings may also need replacing.

Any suspicions I have would be on the O ring - seemed to fit better one way than the other...

As with any equipment bought second hand it pays to test that it works before you use it

It arrived fully pressurised and sealed so took that as a worthwhile test and seemed OK while cleaning and sanitising - apart from the afortementioned liquid backfire from pressurising when it had no-rinse iodophor solution in it

'O' rings on a Cornelius keg are easy and cheap to change and PRV & Poppets can also be replaced if needed.

Hmm - hope not - at least not yet but good to know all easy and cheap to change if needed.

Gas it up again and spray the lid, prv, posts and poppets with water, this should help determin where it is leaking from. (stirring a little detergent into the water may help).

Wiull do that this eve - thanks for the tip.

This is almost certainly not the case, you should be able to clean and sanitise a corni without effecting its integreity. The higher the pressure in the keg the better they seal.

Thought so, they;re tough things... Just worried about the wierd liquid backfirre from the widget world gas manifold - if lliquid level was too high or somehting but shall write that one off.

No, what you have described would be a little fast. It usually takes about a week in most cases but is dependant on temperature and pressure.

Figured so - seems to drop quickly while my other one is maintaining pressure fine... Will try the test above and if problems persist de-pressurise and rinse the main lid and check PRV seal which should be fine with the beer in it. If that doesn't sort it guess I'll be back here!

[mentaldental]

I have been going through my Cornies trying to get them to seal at low pressure (3 psi if I can). I have found that in order to do this:

1 The poppits often need changing. They seem to be the "weak link" in the system.
2. The main seals are temperamental and it is necessary to take some time to get them correctly seated making sure the lid is seated centrally.
3. Giving a good high pressure blast of CO2 to seat everything home, then reducing the pressure sometimes gets things sorted. You often hear the lid seal"creak" into place.
4. A few Cornies just don't want to seal at lower pressures. And to be fair they were not designed to do so.

I have tried the red seals that are sold by Candirect which they claim to be for "homebrew" (ie low pressure) use. I think they are worse than the originals.

[lancsSteve]

Didn't pick up on this before. If the beer is above the level of the gas dip tube and you pressureise the keg, disconnect the gas supply then reconnect it without any pressure in the gas line, the beer will be forced back into the gas line. Solution: drink some beer

Beer is safely below - REALLY didn't fancy drinking any soda crystal water or iodine solution

Lids also often seal better one way rather than the other. Sometimes they just need a little jiggling into position while the keg is under pressure by striking the lid a few times with the heal of your hand until any hissing sounds abate.

THAT'S the kind of advice I like - the 'have you hit it yet?' school of fixing Not had any hissing sounds though - the leak is VERY slow... will see how it is this eve

If you just have the one keg, leaving the gas and the beer tap connected is a quick solution for leaving poppets (as long as all your gas and beer connections are sound).

Have two so shall be jumping the tap and widget between them - currently carbonating both a bock (that stuck) and the roggenbier.

Thansk for the links to filing from a corny - off to watch it now. Interesting link in your sig too - always nice to hear a different tune.

[lancsSteve]

No joy yet - had dropped all pressure by end of the day so took lid off again reversed O-ring and tried using a little vaseling as well. Put it back on other way round and still losing pressure - time to remove the poppets next I fear - will see if the water spray hels but as it's a VERY slow pressure drop (even when charged up to 60+psi) it's going to be hard to track it down

[lancsSteve]

Water spray won't heal it, it will only help highlight the leak (a bit like looking for a leak in your bike inner tube in a bucket of water).

I actually did know that not quite as dumb as some of my posts may imply but then this is teh interwebs so if in doubt assume total incompetence Just haven't got round to making up the soapy water and spraying on - will get onto it this eve...

You should also try rotating the lid 180 deg and not just the o-ring.

Did that first - no joy, so then tried turning it again and changing o-ring, again no joy...

If it's dropping from 60 psi to nothing within a matter of hours it should be easy enough to spot after spraying the seals with water.

Hope so! Then hopefully can fix it as well...

[lancsSteve]

OK - maybe it is time to assume total incompetence...

So what pray tell am I looking for, and where, having sprayed it all with soapy water?

Have used a fine plant mister to spray film of water with a good few drops of washing up liquid and a little squeezy soap dripped into it and looked on, increasingly blankly, as nothing happens - no bubbling, no hissing, nowt. So where would/could it be leaking from and what should I do for a spray if this isn't showing much (or do i need to wait or something?)

The pressure drop is fairly slow I guess - it had gone from 28psi (target pressure) recharge this morning down to 12 through the day today...

The manifold PRV will go at over 60psi so I've now charged it at 40 and will try and monitor the drop. The tube from manifold to disconnect holds pressure fine having left that disconnected all day it was still at 28psi when i got home.

Have tried reversing the lid again - only step I can think of now is to try swapping the lids between my two cornies and see if that works.

[lancsSteve]

Swapped lids - old one OK with new lid, new one lost 8psi pressure in about 3 hours

Guess it's not the lids, larfe o ring or prv then - so what next? Starting to fear for the brews in the kegs now with the swapping of parts and constant re-exposure to air etc...

[Parva]

One thing that seems to have been overlooked.... Dropping from 36PSI to 24PSI over a few hours @15c is quite feasible. The beer absorbs the C02 and the less headspace you have in the keg the faster it will drop.

Apologies if I've missed the boat on this one.

[lancsSteve]

Temp is closer to 5c so absortion should be faster but this seems VERY fast - it's dropped from 28psi to 12si overnight - which seems too fast for force carbonation to be working and more likely a leak - compared to say the other cornie at same temp which showed a slow drop over a few days.

There's practically NO headspace (beer almost up to the posts) but that rate of drop seems VERY quick - though I've drawn a blank trying to find any clear figures for what rate of absorption you should expect.

Think I'm going to prime, bottle and send it back TBH as I'm getting nowhere apart from pi$$ed off.

[lancsSteve]

That doesn't rule out the lid seal. You may find the sealing surface (inside the keg) is the problem and requires a scrub with a plastic pot scrubber to remove old bits of o-ring which may have got stuck to it.

Will have a look - there are a few wee dents and dinks around the seal on the keg which could be it I suppose...

I take it spraying water onto the poppets, posts, lid and prv didn't show up any leaks with the keg pressurised ?

Showed nothing apart from a wet top of the cornie - no bubbling or anything like that. Used washing up liquid a dn a little liquid soap in fine spray bottle - does it need to be proper soap or something?

PSI down from 28psi at 10pm to 12psi this morning at 8am - at 4C

[adm]

I'm guessing that it's just the CO2 being absorbed into the beer.

If the corny is full, then you'll have only a little headspace, so it won't take much gas to get to 30psi (or whatever pressure you are using). As there's only a little gas, the pressure will drop quickly as it is absorbed. Also, given that it's cold, the gas will absorb more quickly.

My inclination would be to just leave it connected and pressurised for a week then see how it is. I'd probably get another widget cylinder in just in case there is a leak (and look for a pub gas cylinder for the long term).

[lancsSteve]

I'm guessing that it's just the CO2 being absorbed into the beer.

Which is kind of the problem - we're all just guessing! There clearly are exact details on CO2 absorption rates but damned if I can find them or run any calculations... However it is MUCH faster than anything I've seen in my other cornie though a wheat/rye beer is highly caronated and a stout / bock is much lower so it's not comparing like with like...

Think I might toddle over to an American forum where more people have cornies and drink colder fizzier beer as wheat/rye beers are pretty much the exact opposite of trad Brit styles (drink them young, fizzy, cool and swirl the yeast up) so the rules from one don't equate to the other...