RIMS/HERMs single vessel setup

[Kev888]

Due to various family health issues I'm going to pretty much stop drinking day-to-day (or at least cut down drastically) so that I'm always able to drive. I'm not actually sure at this point if I'll continue home brewing or not, but if I do then it'll be at a reduced volume and any brewing sessions will have to take up much less time. So my plans to re-do the 80L three-vessel garage system are now off, and I've been pondering the alternatives.

I'm reaching the conclusion that a single vessel 'No-Sparge' setup combined with RIMS or HERMS may offer the best solution; it should shorten the brewing process, reduce the need for manually monitoring/doing stuff during the process, and keep the clean-up reasonable too. The initial setup may be a bit complex but I’m in no hurry to get it built so that’s not really a problem.

The claims for the Braumeister setup look good, and I’ve poked around this and various other forums on BIAB, no-sparging and various RIMS/HERMS systems and am reassured that (if done properly) it should allow me to do everything I want as conveniently as possible and without any particular compromise in quality. But this takes me out of my comfort zone in a couple of places and I have a few questions:

• 1. First and foremost, does this even seem like a reasonable way to go?
  
  2. I’ve not used HERMS or RIMS before and am unclear about the ideal recirculation speed, the upward-flowing braumeister looks to be quite rapid though. Aside from the possibility of sticking, is there any other reason to throttle back recirculation speed or is faster better and more responsive (if the false bottom lets you)?
  
  3. I was thinking of using all the liquor in one continuous BIAB/no-sparge process; does anyone know of a reason why a very loose/thin mash is undesirable?

Many thanks,
Kev

[barneey]

Kev, Sorry to here about your family health issue, hope everything works out.

As for the Braumeister setup I would have thought it would be within reason to beable to build a similar set up using the pots from France. Here goes:-

Outer thermo pot, inner single skin pot, pid and pump.....

The outer pot housing a burco style element and the necessary inlet/ outlet fittings, the inner pot having loads of holes drilled in the bottom and the lid to act as the mash tun (how to hold the lid on????) and being supported on legs within the thermo pot. Temp control via a pid (not to sure about the timer aspect). As for the pump not to sure what one to use? but using a skin fitting with some sort of cone arrangement to direct the flow upwards through the mash (not too sure why it has to go upwards rather than convention downwards? (downwards would be easier?) Lift the mash pot out to drain as the video ( supported on two struts across the thermo pot) and then boil away, separate outlet with hop filter for the take off.

I only wish I hadnt seen the Braumeister now as it has me thinking.....I should be brewing

EDIT also found loads of useful info here

Enough of my ramblings

Regards

Clive

[danbrew]

Hi Kev, again sorry to hear about things on the health front...

For me there seems to be two areas you are concerned about, the first being the pros and cons of BIAB (or more accuratley what is referred to as 'full volume' brewing). I think you should satisfy yourself regarding this but if you have a search about I think the subject has been done to death on here and elsewhere, personally I think the results speak for themselves...

Second, the braumeister/ build. I am heading towards a similar set up myself with a 27l cygnet boiler which I use for a 19l cornie brew length. I was planning on fitting a removable false bottom to filter the hops, a solar pump to recirculate and a PID to control the element. I have since rethought my plans because I seem to achieve good results by manually recirculating the mash half way through by jugging wort from the bottom tap and pouring in at the top whilst the element is on . I keep the bag/grains off the element with a bent cake rack with makes a bridge over keeping everything well clear whilst the element is on. Heat loss seems to be less of an issue beacuse of the volume of water though. That said, the biggest advantage to me is I find getting to strike temp is dead easy becuase I can increase the temp after I have mashed in - that saves me a lot of messing about... It's kind of like a manual RIMS...

I am going to fit a solar pump to cut out the need for jugging, but I now don't think I will need a pid if I improve my insulation heat loss should be much less of an issue but that could be personal choice.

A factor for you to consider is do you want to use a bag to mash in or would you rather have the inner pot. From looking around I found getting a decent fitting inner pot to be a PITA so I have stuck with the bag. They both serve the same purpose and you have to figure out how to lift either so for me I went for bag and stopped looking for pots.

Lots to think about but certainly do-able. I'll stop ranting on about it because I don't know if I am making much sense!!! It's as easy or as hard as you want to make it.

[boingy]

Kev, this is not quite answering your question but have you thought about using extract?
As long as you take the trouble to avoid old musty LME then you can brew a fair old range of damn fine beers without needing to mash anything.
The price per pint goes up but if you are going for lower quantities then it's less of a problem and you could even downsize to the stage where a brew day is a couple of hours in the kitchen boiling a gallon or so on the hob.

As I said, not really answering your question but maybe worth considering. Of course, it doesn't give you the excuse you need to build new equipment....

[Kev888]

Many thanks chaps - both for the thoughts and for the good wishes!

Clive - thats very similar indeed to what I was thinking of, which is encouraging. I've already bought a PID and a couple of french stock pots in anticipation of upgrading the larger system, so (if it goes ahead) I'd like to use some of these for the new setup instead.

Beerkiss - interesting idea, I'll be interested to see how it goes. Having searched around I'm fairly confident that the BAIB/no-sparge/full volume approach can produce excellent results if done well, so thats encouraging. But I notice some systems use the same process with a reduced volume and then top up either for the boil or in the FV; I can't yet determine if this is (as I suspect) just to economise on pot size or if there's some reason for mashing stiffer (or less loose).

Boingy - thats an excellent thought, many thanks. My old extract brews were not of a standard with my current AG ones, BUT they were all back in the days when dodgy LME was pretty much all I could get; I see there are all sorts of interesting quality extacts around now so maybe I could revisit that. I'm 'currently' still hoping to keep the satisfaction and flexibility of grain (just with smaller volume and shorter brew days), but if that doesn't happen then the extract idea could well keep me brewing.

Thanks again to all,
Kev

[danbrew]

I can't yet determine if this is (as I suspect) just to economise on pot size or if there's some reason for mashing stiffer (or less loose).

It's quicker to heat the mash liquor too which is a factor for some perhaps. All I know is I used to test mash pH when I did conventional 2.5l/kg and I test it now and I haven't noticed a difference.

Only thing I am missing now for my manual RIMS is a decent wire probed thermometer that can stay in the mash to continually check the temp and I'm well away...

[Kev888]

Ah, thats good to know, thanks. I guess also without a sparge in the process then a thinner recirculating mash would be more efficient. Probably full-volume is the way for me then, heating and step mashing etc would be slower with more volume, but if I do what I can to maximise the heating power and recirculation rate that'll be okay.

Right, I'm getting enthused by all this so I think I'll start to plan something out and see how far it gets. I enjoy designing/building stuff so it won't be a major loss if it doesn't work out.

Cheers
Kev

[barneey]

Kev a few questions,

1) What size French stock pots did you have in mind for the build?
2) Were you going to use a solar pump?
3) Upward or downward flow through the mash?

EDIT I was thinking along the lines of a 50ltr thermo (400mm dia internally) with either a 33 or 21 ltr internal single skin pot ( 350 or 300mm diameter internally).

Regards

[Spud395]

Hey Kev, I was listening to an episode of Brew Strong recently in which they were discussing mash thickness.

They came to the conclusion that up to 5L/kg is not a problem, if that's any reassurance to you.
I'm half thinking of a similar set up, it seems so simple, saying that I wasn't thinking of automating the process.
Surely if you recirc up it eliminates the worry about sticking the mash/speed of pumping.

[Kev888]

Thanks Spud, yes thats very reassuring - I'd been struggling to find anything very specific about it so thats really useful. It certainly does seem simple - me being me, I'm tempted to make the build a bit more complicated for a simpler operation, but at most I'll automate the temperature control; I don't need/want to pre-programme stages and timings so that seems excessive for my needs, I'd prefer to just have it easy and intuitive to control manually.

I'm also assuming that the upward recirculation makes things easier, as gravity would help avoid sticking rather than adding to the chances, and that makes a lot of sense to me. But I have seen a Youtube video where for some reason wort was spurting past the edges of the upper filter in messy vertical jets; I'm guessing the filter must still have become partially blocked/stuck (causing back-pressure) so upward recirculation is perhaps not necessarily the complete answer I expected. The Braumeister does seem like the earlier models had quite a fine cloth filter though (behind a coarser perforated sheet), and I suspect a decent stainless mesh would resist clogging better, but it still surprised me; I'm wondering if the looser mash and upward flow may actually encourage finer bits to float up past the larger grain husks until they collect on the upper filter.

Another of my slight concerns with the design (rather than the principle) is the hot wort splashing down from the inner basket to the outer pot - some people's seems to run down the sides but others splash more. I've been researching HSA and the most reasoned advice so far seems to be that the effects are not very important compared to other factors so its not normally something to become concerned about, but that it does actually exist so vaguely 'reasonable' care to avoid it is probably still prudent... I'm not yet sure that 60mins of splashing/recirculation is as reasonable as I'd like, really though.

Its less of a brewing issue, but having watched people bending over the braumeister and reaching in to mix, clean etc I'm also a bit put off by the tall stainless spike in the center that seems to be aimed at the user's faces/eyes..

EDIT: This isn't supposed to be criticism of the braumeister, by the way - I think its ingenious. I'm just looking at what it is/does and considering what my own very personal choices would be if i went for a similar concept.

Cheers
Kev

[Kev888]

Kev a few questions,

1) What size French stock pots did you have in mind for the build?
2) Were you going to use a solar pump?
3) Upward or downward flow through the mash?

EDIT I was thinking along the lines of a 50ltr thermo (400mm dia internally) with either a 33 or 21 ltr internal single skin pot ( 350 or 300mm diameter internally).

Regards

Hi,
Its very early days yet - really just thinking of options and possibilities but so far:

1. Well I bought some 100L ones (intended for the bigger setup) so it would probably make sense to use one of those, maybe turning the other into a very spacious FV. By my mental calculations (which I'd have to check) a decently high gravity brew of a double-corny brew length would reach around 80L with all the grain and liquor together so a 100L pot seems reasonable.

That said, I'm probably mainly going to be doing 1-corny brew lengths so a 50L tank would probably be more suitable for me day-to-day, but I already have the 100L pot and actually I'm thinking that it would be nice to retain at least the option of 2-corny batches, for example when leading up to 'events' where I'm not the only drinker. If it works out well then I could probably dis-band my existing 4-corny setup, whereas I'd be reluctant if my only other option was 1-corny. I may have inner pots of different sizes for the two brew-lengths, or some way of adjusting the overflow/outlet height.

I'd been imagining that the next pot down (70L) for the inner basket would be the obvious choice, giving me about 25mm clearance, but I've not really got that far in planning yet so its just a vague thought. Its also possible that my existing 120L boiler may snugly take a 100l french pot inside it, if for some reason that turns out to be a desirable thing to do, but I suspect the grain bed would be very wide and shallow for 1-corny brews.

2. Yes I may well use solar pumps; I have three 14w ones I bought for the big setup so could even run them in parallel or something; I like that they're so quiet and can be sanitised by boiling water/wort. I'd been thinking faster was better for step mashing and so on, so was wandering about the Stuart Turner RG pump, but it can't take boiling (officially) and having seen that upward sparging can still stick somewhat (see my post above) I'm now thinking if I buy a new pump it perhaps should be more modest speed, maybe the march may 809; if necessary to avoid sticking I could probably use a coarser grain filter with that than I could with solar pumps. I had considered that a self-priming pump with suction could possibly get over different batch sizes being different heights and also avoid the splashing down, by simply sucking the wort out upwards, but I've not thought that through much yet and anyway I can't find any food-grade/boiling-capable ones.

3. I liked the idea of upward recirculation making use of gravity rather than being hindered by it, but having seen to my surprise that the upper filter can still block I want to establish if its worth it for the extra complication - e.g. if it encourages smaller lighter bits to float up past the grain instead of the grain itself being a filter for them it may have only small benefits. If so, possibly one could trap the grain at a volume that doesn't let it float so loosely in spite of the large liquid ratio, or something. I don't know how i'd find any of this out without quite time consuming trials though..

Cheers
Kev

[danbrew]

Hey Kev, I was listening to an episode of Brew Strong recently in which they were discussing mash thickness.

They came to the conclusion that up to 5L/kg is not a problem, if that's any reassurance to you.

Which episode was that Spud? Would be worth a listen...

[jonnyt]

Why are you thinking of RIMS?
With that volume of water to grain I see little to be gained. Just do a full volume BIAB in a well insulated vessel. The silver foil bubble wrap is equivalent to 65mm of polystyrene so provides an excellent starting point and with the volume of water compared to tradition mash, heat loss will be naturally lower.

I mash with 34L plus of water to 5KG of grain or less, after treating my water using the free tool on this site my mashes have always come out around 5.2
I could of course move that figure easily either way if required

[Spud395]

Hey Kev, I was listening to an episode of Brew Strong recently in which they were discussing mash thickness.

They came to the conclusion that up to 5L/kg is not a problem, if that's any reassurance to you.

Which episode was that Spud? Would be worth a listen...

Pretty sure this one without listening to it again.
It's a Q&A

[danbrew]

Nice one thanks I'll check it out...