100L Brewery Design

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chris2012
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Re: 100L Brewery Design

Post by chris2012 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:47 am

Like Kev says, I'd definitely get SS LWD elements, I notice my kettle element seems to go black, which can't be good for the beer. (I am gonna start re-circing while the boiler heats up to see if that helps).

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Re: 100L Brewery Design

Post by james1988 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:05 pm

Thanks for taking the time to reply, both. I've replied to your comments, my replies are in italic...

Assuming a firkin is 9 gallons or about 41 litres then the brewing pot sizes you suggest seem more than adequate. At 41L plus losses to sediment/deadspace/dry-hops, the 50L FVs will likely need blow-off tubes - unless the 50L is working capacity rather than total capacity? With no bright tanks, I presume you've checked two FVs will be enough for your turnover.

The 50L FV's are total capacity and have a working capacity of 40L; I was intending on adding more to the fleet should orders pick up. With regards to the bright tanks, I was thinking that once the fermentation is over I could keg and carbonate the beer which is what I currently do.

Personally I would choose a more industrial and lower watt-density type of elements, especially if this kit may be used heavily. e.g some of Brewbuilder's or at a pinch domestic immersion elements (though these are harder to fit). Not sure if you'd need to consider H&S if going semi-commercial, some of the electrical things homebrewers do for themselves verge on being bodges, and may not be appropriate - inadequate IP ratings and the like.

I'd thought of that myself but I can't find anything specific. I'm working under the impression that as long as it's built well and there's nothing obviously wrong (such as bare wires) then I can't see what there would be to pick you up on.

I would like a ready built brewery instead of building one myself but I'm struggling to find one that is electric powered rather than gas powered.

The reason I went for the two 2.8 kw was because of the time taken to get 100L to strike temperature; scorching the wort was a secondary concern of mine. The other problem I can envisage is the current draw of two 3kw elements.


If you're going for an IC, then make sure it is a big one; they can struggle with larger volumes in summer. The extra time they can take is to some extent repaid with easier cleaning though. I presume that if you're selling the produce, you may have to comply with hygiene requirements throughout the design of the rig, and probably its environment too. 

Thought of that as well and made the decision that a counterflow chiller is likely going to be a liability with regards to hygeine which is why I chose the immersion chiller

I don't see the firkins on your list, or hoses, hygienic couplings and that kind of thing. Make sure the electrics and water supply and drains are suitable - bigger volumes are tedious if you need to carry water around etc. As a semi-commercial venture, then in addition to registering for tax, there could be planning approvals needed and restrictions on smells and dumping waste into the drains. I may be wrong, but IIRC if you register as commercial, even your homebrewing may be due for tax if done on the same premises.

I'm looking at EcoKeg at the moment, I'd e-mailed them the other day but I've not had a response just yet so will chase them up shortly.

I've come to the conclusion that the shed is a non starter because of the plumbing and electrics. I have an attached garage that I could brew in. I'm considering building a false wall and closing off a 15 x 6 work space in there. It has electricity, drainage (although I'd need to find where the sewer is) and water so most of the work is already done.

I'm most concerned about the councils view on cross contamination due to my car being in the garage but if I build a seperate room then the beer would never come in to contact with any garage 'stuff'. I intend on keeping the council in the loop throughout so I don't end up spending a fortune if it's never going to get off the ground because I can't brew at home.

With regards to hoses and hygeinic couplings, are you able to point me in the right direction? I've no idea where to begin in all honesty.


James

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Kev888
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Re: 100L Brewery Design

Post by Kev888 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:32 pm

There isn't much overlap between pro couplings and homebrew types, but Triclamp/Triclover fittings are recognised by both so could be a good choice if you have a foot in both camps. Similarly, most pro brewers use special (and often ready made/assembled) hose, but it seems likely that food-grade platinum-cured silicone hose is a suitable compromise at small scales; I wouldn't want to use anything cheaper or which may impart chemicals.

A lot of the issues to do with selling beer seem less to do with the practical aspects of brewing and more to do with rules and regulations (plus sales, economics etc). I don't know these in any great depth so check before buying; there are a few on here who brew professionally so hopefully you'll get some better advice.
Kev

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Re: 100L Brewery Design

Post by republicofbeer » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:20 am

I would really recommend using a plate chiller rather than immersion. I use 200l vessels and wren I was using a ic I was struggling to get the temp down. In the summer I was then struggling even with the plate chiller however I now use my maxi chiller to supply icy cold water to the chiller. Cleaning it is no issue.
I also agree on only fully SS elements. I use 2no 5.5kW elements in my kettle, 2no in my HLT and 3kW in my RIMs tube.
Secondly you will find 100ltr vessels too small in my opinion. You will struggle to make it pay once you consider duty etc.
Do not underestimate how much it will cost. I have spent probably 3 times wgat I originally planned. The small bits certainly add up very quickly.


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Re: 100L Brewery Design

Post by republicofbeer » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:32 am

Also do not underestimate how much storage you need. My brew shed is 6.5x2.7m and I am now building a secondary storage areas. If you are selling you will need to buy hops etc in bulk, buying them from home brew shops works out far too expensive.
It is also hard to make decent margins on cask at the moment. Last year several breweries stopped doing them and I think it was either Siren or Moor who released a statement saying they are continuing with them, but only to help the brand, financially they make their money through bottles / cans.


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Re: 100L Brewery Design

Post by PeeBee » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:02 pm

[quote="Kev888"]...
It is possible to brew 20L in a 100l rig; I sometimes did this on my old one. You need to have the kettle elements low down to be effective and to minimise dead-space as this has a proportionally bigger impact on efficiency. BUT it isn't really very nice; a big setup is a lot more unwieldy and only really justifies that extra awkwardness with the bigger volumes. So I would advise not disposing of the smaller setup unless you need to, it may also be useful for testing new recipes.
[/quote]

Good point. I often get jealous of people brewing 20L when 40L is my smallest brew length (60L brewery - 100L boiler so 60L is the maximum practical, I'm somewhat sceptical about a 100L brewery that specifies a 100L boiler). My conical fermenter is probably my limiting factor, 20L would get a bit lost in it, and equipment losses don't change much whether brewing 20 or 60L.

In case the build is useful info find it here: http://www.angelhomebrew.co.uk/forum/vi ... 7e5dcb3fe7

It has undergone a few small changes, especially the ops manual, which I'll get around to updating soon. And it is undergoing a major change: A "Reserve HLT" that manages the HLT! It will allow me to heat portions of the HLT liquor "offline" so it will rapidly increase the temperature of the HLT (which feeds a HERMS) when returned to it. I grew impatient with the RIMS stuff and consider the other solution (a mini-HERMS for faster response) a dead loss.

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Re: 100L Brewery Design

Post by republicofbeer » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:24 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Kev888 wrote:...
It is possible to brew 20L in a 100l rig; I sometimes did this on my old one. You need to have the kettle elements low down to be effective and to minimise dead-space as this has a proportionally bigger impact on efficiency. BUT it isn't really very nice; a big setup is a lot more unwieldy and only really justifies that extra awkwardness with the bigger volumes. So I would advise not disposing of the smaller setup unless you need to, it may also be useful for testing new recipes.
Good point. I often get jealous of people brewing 20L when 40L is my smallest brew length (60L brewery - 100L boiler so 60L is the maximum practical, I'm somewhat sceptical about a 100L brewery that specifies a 100L boiler). My conical fermenter is probably my limiting factor, 20L would get a bit lost in it, and equipment losses don't change much whether brewing 20 or 60L.

In case the build is useful info find it here: http://www.angelhomebrew.co.uk/forum/vi ... 7e5dcb3fe7

It has undergone a few small changes, especially the ops manual, which I'll get around to updating soon. And it is undergoing a major change: A "Reserve HLT" that manages the HLT! It will allow me to heat portions of the HLT liquor "offline" so it will rapidly increase the temperature of the HLT (which feeds a HERMS) when returned to it. I grew impatient with the RIMS stuff and consider the other solution (a mini-HERMS for faster response) a dead loss.
What was your issue with RIMS? I use a RIMS setup and find it works extremely accurately.


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Re: 100L Brewery Design

Post by PeeBee » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:46 pm

republicofbeer wrote:
What was your issue with RIMS? I use a RIMS setup and find it works extremely accurately.
None. But I (personally) didn't think it was fast enough (for temperature step-ups). Faster and less faff than one of those cut-down HERMS pots. But nothing beats heating the heat exchanger jacket water "off-line". Or that's what I'm planning on - not built the arrangements yet.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: 100L Brewery Design

Post by chris2012 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:19 pm

Wouldn't a steam jacketed vessel be among the best solution. But I'd be surprised if using a heat exchanger is much faster, than passing the wort straight through the element.

Edit: maybe i'm confused what you mean by heat exchanger, do you mean say pumping wort through a plate chiller (which is what i thought you meant)

Or do you mean the vessel has a water jacket?

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Re: 100L Brewery Design

Post by PeeBee » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:18 pm

The heat-exchanger is a counter-flow "pipe-in-pipe" arrangement consisting of an about 5M 15mm bore core (concertinaed) and finished off with a chamber holding a 2kw element (it's a hybrid HERMS/RIMS and as the HLT is filled from the mains that must pass through the jacket, its the cooler too). The 70L HLT, that feeds the HERMS, is heated by 6kw element, but can't create a temperature rise in the mashtun as great as the direct heat coming from the 2kw RIMS element. So, as I consider the RIMS to be sluggish, the plan is to dump a quantity of liquor at a pre-determined and pre-heated temperature into the HLT to get a much faster rise in mash temperature.

The trouble with RIMS and HERMS controlled by PIDS is their tendency to be very slow converging temperatures (the PIDs do this on purpose to avoid overshooting).


EDIT: A piccie helps. The heat exchanger is that copper mass in the cupboard.
HERMS-RIMS Hybrid Brewery.jpg
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: 100L Brewery Design

Post by chris2012 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:35 am

Sorry for being stupid, but just to clarify what are you actually passing through the heat exchanger, wort + water, or...?

Also is the jacket on the mash tun, or..?

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Re: 100L Brewery Design

Post by PeeBee » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:14 am

"Pipe-in-pipe" means just that: there's a 15mm core transporting the wort and a 38mm jacket transporting (in the opposite direction - counter-flow) the heated HLT water (or cold mains).
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: 100L Brewery Design

Post by chris2012 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:47 am

Hmm, doesn't that make it HERMs essentially then, because of the indirect heating? Why would that be faster at heating? With RIMS, when I used it, I would heat the HLT to a strike temp, transfer water to grain, then use RIMS to maintain temp, which worked great for me. I wasn't doing stepped mashing, but I would of thought given the direct heat of RIMS, it would be more than capable of it.

If you're going to dump in water ranging up to 100C, at certain periods into the HLT to effect a step mash, I still wonder how much difference that would make compared to rims, due to the indirect heating, be curious to hear how it goes.

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Re: 100L Brewery Design

Post by PeeBee » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:59 am

Hi Chris2012. We're close to nit picking here, however...

Yes its essentially a large volume HERMS. They are notoriously slow for step-ups (in temperature) so a lot of people recommend low volume HERMS (low volume of water heated about the HERMS coil that is). But I didn't like the arguments for a low volume HERMS and built in a RIMS heater for temperature step-ups. So I know RIMS is faster at heating the mash! But a large volume HERMS is also very good at maintaining stable mash temperatures. But I was having problems:

If using HERMS to reach strike temperature it took a long time for the HLT to cool enough to recirculate the mash. You don't have that issue. If step mashing RIMS didn't heat the mash as fast as I would like. You don't have that issue. So the new design has a "HLT reserve" where a volume of liquor is heated (or in the case of the HLT at strike temperature, kept cooler) "off-line" (the HLT is maintaining HERMS so is "on-line") and this reserve is dumped into the HLT for a very rapid temperature change. The HLT temperature changes near instantly but there is still going to be a delay while the mash catches up.

EDIT: The speed difference isn't going to be much because speed is dictated by flow, and too great a flow at this stage results in stuck mashes. But initial temperature step-up is going to be faster from indirect heating by a large counter-flow heat-exchanger compared to RIMS - my RIMS (2kw) initially increased temperature 3-4C in a single pass (difference between input and output temperature from the RIMS tube); the increase from a single pass of the HERMS coil will be the same as the difference in wort and HLT temperature (8,9,10C?).
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: 100L Brewery Design

Post by james1988 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:13 am

Thanks for the advice everybody. Having read and digested all of it, it would seem 100L is a bit small to make it worthwhile - that was in the back of my mind from the start.

As I don't want to put anything on credit it appears I'll have quite a bit of saving to do before considering this as a viable venture.

I'll be sure to update the thread if anything comes of it.

James

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