Kettle Power Cable - Advice please

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chefgage
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Re: Kettle Power Cable - Advice please

Post by chefgage » Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:01 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Thanks all for the responses so far - knowledge on this forum is always invaluable to a slightly out-of-my-depth, figuring it out as I go novice like me.

I've probably muddled up socket and plug in my post above (past my bedtime when writing last night). The mains 3-pin plug has a 13A fuse in it but the actual C15 socket at the other end says 10A on it, as does the packaging for the product.

Regarding my current cable, I should have been clearer that is was the C15 socket rather than the cable itself that was showing signs of melting/deteriorating. It's a 10A connector from Maplin http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/maplin-10a-ho ... cket-n08kc to connect to budget elements (dismantled Tesco kettle) in a plastic bin and I'd guessed it just had a limited life (unless I did something wrong when I wired it up originally). I've bought a new boiler recently but ideally want to use this still to heat my sparge water.

I don't have the new cable with me as I'm at work but will check what other details it says - but sounding like my gut instinct to send it back is the right thing to do though (and that the seller knows about as much as I do about this stuff).
I see what you are saying now. The socket end if it states 10amp then thats what it is rated at. The plug is rated at 13a but you can put in different fuses. So for the 10amp socket end you would put a 10amp or less fuse in the plug to protect the cable and socket end.

Basically alot of equipment is sold with the 3 pin type plugs on with a 13amp fuse in it. The cable should be rated at above 13amp if supplied with the 13amp fuse.

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Re: Kettle Power Cable - Advice please

Post by alexlark » Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:12 pm

vacant wrote:
Bunglebrewsbeer wrote:
alexlark wrote:Get one of these off eBay, much more substantial: 330942526638
is there a link to that item?
It's an ebay item number. Just go to ebay and paste it into the search box at the top :)
Seriously, just get this cable and job done. Soooooo much better than the one that came with my 2.4kw element.

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Kev888
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Re: Kettle Power Cable - Advice please

Post by Kev888 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:26 pm

The lead in the OP is short and would probably not see excessive heat build up in the time taken to (say) boil a kettle, the flex may be heat-rated too. But 0.75 square mm is pretty minimal even for a kettle application; I wouldn't personally choose it for our kind of sustained use even at 10amps (certainly not at 13amps).

There is a lot of electrical stuff out there these days, which reduces margins and trades longevity for cheapness even if still complying with standards. Then we come along, and use it to heat a brew kettle for hours on end, compressing an already unimpressive lifetime of normal domestic use into just a few brews. Quite a few people are starting to see 'hot condition' IEC plugs melt and wear out quickly, whereas it was quite unusual some years back.

As to whether this lead does comply with the listing I wouldn't like to call. It doesn't specifically claim the lead is rated at 13amps, just that the mains plug and fuse are 13amp rated. There is potential confusion (by the seller as well as the buyer) between 13amp 'style' leads and their actual rating as a whole; the plug type and/or fuse doesn't guarantee much about the overall rating. It also doesn't help that the 'rating' given for the flex is its size, not really a rating, or that the BS number seems incomplete - TBH I'd struggle to trust information from this source, especially as you've verified the IEC outlet end is 10amps (which is quite typical, whilst 13amp is rare for these).

EDIT: Alexlark's suggestion looks promising. If i could choose a flex then H07RN-F would be top of my list, and 1.0 square mm is suitably rated for a short 10amp lead.
Kev

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Re: Kettle Power Cable - Advice please

Post by AnthonyUK » Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:16 pm

If it was a genuine C15 connector it should be rated to 120°c at 10A.

it should look like this.

Image

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Kev888
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Re: Kettle Power Cable - Advice please

Post by Kev888 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:51 pm

According the link in the OP, the new lead is. Not sure about the old one, but people have had allegedly true/proper C15 plugs melt so its no guarantee, unfortunately. Cheap and nasty materials, probably.
Kev

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themadhippy
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Re: Kettle Power Cable - Advice please

Post by themadhippy » Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:55 pm

0.75mm flex is widely used on 16A and 20A protected circuits through europe and complies not only with there electrical regs,but thanks to harmonization also to ours,however personally id only use such cable for a max of 6A.
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rowyourboat
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Re: Kettle Power Cable - Advice please

Post by rowyourboat » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:04 am

This is now bringing back vague memories of physics from school - something about current and resistance and heat...! And the element will draw a certain current from the mains regardless of the fuse in the plug? Fairly sure that is 10a element so if the connections have loosened in the connector (definitely C15 not C13) the heat may have come from here - bad wiring by me I guess.

I'll be requesting a refund from the seller for these new ones as they're not as described and unused and will get something with thicker flex anyway.

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Kev888
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Re: Kettle Power Cable - Advice please

Post by Kev888 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:20 am

Yes, a lot of the ratings are to do with resistance causing too much heat build up and/or voltage drop under the maximum current. The fuse will get a little warm too, but its rating is generally not a great indicator (or limit of) of current carrying capability; they're very crude devices and mostly just effective for gross overload situations (like short citcuits), especially if conservatively rated to avoid nuisance blowing.

The heat could also come from the IEC plug/element-to-socket pin contacts being less than ideal. If theres a poor contact it offers resistance and generates heat - which in turn can cause the contact to deteriorate further. This is one reason why well made contacts are better than cheapo rubbish, but wear/damage can affect even the best makes.

Heat can also stem from the element. Hot condition plugs need only withstand 120c service temperature; the wort can slightly exceed 100c and the element needs to be noticeably hotter, or there would be little heat transfer. Should the element also get crud building on it, its not far to go to reach 120c; I have some 116c over-temperature switches on my element bases, and they regularly click in and out during a boil. TBH as quality margins diminish, I'm thinking elements that take IEC plugs are increasingly going to become a weak point.
Kev

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Re: Kettle Power Cable - Advice please

Post by Jocky » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:29 am

I melted my second lead at the weekend. It's worth noting that the first lead I melted was one of the C15 leads from Angel.

But I think I have found part of the fault here - the 2.4kw 'home brew' elements (the ones sold by home brew suppliers without cutouts) appear to have a bolt/screw welded onto the element housing, with the plastic C14 kettle connector then being attached simply by drilling a hold in the back of the plastic for the screw to poke through, and then a small 6mm nut to retain it. To me this is a design flaw, as it's going to transfer heat directly from the element body right into the connector.

However, the problem is exacerbated with a further flaw on one of my elements. On the guilty element (that has done the melting both times), the screw has a pointy end that pokes out beyond the nut, and I think that is directly transferring heat to the C15 connector. Obviously once it gets warm resistance builds, which in turn makes it warmer and then the whole plug melts. The other element has the end of the screw flush with the nut, and slightly recessed, avoiding contact with the C15 connector.

I guess the chinese factory ran out of bolts of the right length one day and just substituted in screws of roughly the right length. :evil:

At the very least I'm going to fix the guilty element, I'm just waiting for a precision 6mm nut driver/spinner to remove it, but I was also wondering about a longer term fix - directly wiring the element to hot rated 1.5mm flex, and then putting rewirable C19/20 connectors inline so that I can remove the element for cleaning.

Thoughts?
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Kev888
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Re: Kettle Power Cable - Advice please

Post by Kev888 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:21 pm

If you are going for an in-line connector, which would therefore be away from the heat, you could consider the powercon true1 type; 16a rated, latching and also available in splash proof versions.

The only thing I'd be wary of is just how hot the element tails could be getting wrt (a) the method of connecting to them and (b) the heat rating of the directly connected cable.
Kev

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Re: Kettle Power Cable - Advice please

Post by Jocky » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:59 pm

Kev888 wrote:If you are going for an in-line connector, which would therefore be away from the heat, you could consider the powercon true1 type; 16a rated, latching and also available in splash proof versions.

The only thing I'd be wary of is just how hot the element tails could be getting wrt (a) the method of connecting to them and (b) the heat rating of the directly connected cable.
I was going to use flex suitable for wiring up immersion elements, although I'm also aware that there's no strain relief in place then, unless I can fabricate a shroud.
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Re: Kettle Power Cable - Advice please

Post by guypettigrew » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:11 pm

My three 2.4 kW elements and leads all come from Angel Home Brew. The leads are just called 'hot condition element lead'. Don't know what the C 15 leads are, Jocky.

Not only have none of the leads melted, they don't seem to get much above slightly warm at either end.

Guy

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