Beer stone remover

[MashBag]

This might appear on the face of it to be a moot point.

However I have to consider: If the reaction creates co2 it is gone from the liquor. If it salts it remains there, in another form which may or may not need further consideration /action.

Yours, mildy puzzled

[Eric]

I'm sorry, but you seemly anticipate someone will teach you the basics you didn't learn at school with little intent of having another go.

There is no necessity to know what happens to the CO2 than a need to know the whereabouts of the far end of any fart, just a need to be aware that it can disrupt proceedings during and for some time after the event.

[MashBag]

Thanks.

I was asking to clarify a point.

You said...

If you use acid, the alkalinity will be converted to salts.

Many other sources seem to think it turns to co2?

It can't do both. (or can it). Not even my schoolboy chemistry can answer this one

[MashBag]

On a side point we didn't cover water treatment for honebrew at school. Can't think why

I respect your knowledge on this and was hoping you could help.

[guypettigrew]

.

If you use acid, the alkalinity will be converted to salts.

Many other sources seem to think it turns to co2?

It can't do both. (or can it). Not even my schoolboy chemistry can answer this one

Acid reduction of alkalinity can and does do both. My knowledge is rudimentary, at best. But here's how I think it works;

Hydrochloric (HCl) or Sulphuric acid (H2SO4) will react with the Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) to produce Calcium Chloride (CaCl) or Calcium Sulphate (CaSO4), also known as Gypsum. These are the salts we often add to our brews to accentuate the malty or the hoppy flavours respectively.

This process removes the carbonate (CO3) bit of Calcium Carbonate, liberating carbon dioxide (CO2).

How the CO3 turns into CO2 is beyond me, but someone else will know.

The chemistry is a bit uninteresting to me. I just need to know the alkalinity needs to be dropped to around 20 ppm to make good beer. I know how to measure it in the raw water, how to reduce it to whatever I want, and how to measure again make sure I've dropped it to the right level.

Guy

[Eric]

On a side point we didn't cover water treatment for honebrew at school. Can't think why

I respect your knowledge on this and was hoping you could help.

I'm sorry I don't aspire to your expectations, but there's a gap in knowledge I haven't time to bridge. That gap is better bridged by you learning the absolute basics rather than throwing me one-liner irrelevant questions picked at random. Guy explained what a brewer needs to know when acid is used to reduce alkalinity and will have learned at school. Murphy's tech sheet advises to allow time for the CO2 to escape, a brewer needs no more. I could explain all, but that would be a total waste of my time and effort in this situation and you, by your admittances, would be none the wiser at your present level of understanding.

Obviously, water treatment isn't taught at school. There basics are taught to enable further study into that and all other matters for those who wished. Who would think brain surgery skills are learned at school, and the same applies to brewing and every skill in life.

[MashBag]

Thanks Guy. My knowledge is rudimentary too, but I do deep drill into subjects to get it right.

I was just concerned that after the alkalinity is reduced, there might be more action required.
I think I also need to check the calcium is still on target.

[MashBag]

Please don't be offended Eric. That was never my intention, but I always double check and do my own research.

I thought you would like the "homebrew at school" it made me smile and I thought you would too.

[guypettigrew]

Thanks Guy. My knowledge is rudimentary too, but I do deep drill into subjects to get it right.

I was just concerned that after the alkalinity is reduced, there might be more action required.
I think I also need to check the calcium is still on target.

Calcium levels aren't changed when you reduce the alkalinity using acid.

Guy

[MashBag]

Smashing thanks Guy

[Cobnut]

Hydrochloric (HCl) or Sulphuric acid (H2SO4) will react with the Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) to produce Calcium Chloride (CaCl) or Calcium Sulphate (CaSO4), also known as Gypsum. These are the salts we often add to our brews to accentuate the malty or the hoppy flavours respectively.

This process removes the carbonate (CO3) bit of Calcium Carbonate, liberating carbon dioxide (CO2).

How the CO3 turns into CO2 is beyond me, but someone else will know.

2 HCl + CaCO3 ---> CaCl2 + CO2 + H2O

H2SO4 + CaCO3 ---> CaSO4 +CO2 + H2O

I do remember some school chemistry!

[Eric]

Hydrochloric (HCl) or Sulphuric acid (H2SO4) will react with the Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) to produce Calcium Chloride (CaCl) or Calcium Sulphate (CaSO4), also known as Gypsum. These are the salts we often add to our brews to accentuate the malty or the hoppy flavours respectively.

This process removes the carbonate (CO3) bit of Calcium Carbonate, liberating carbon dioxide (CO2).

How the CO3 turns into CO2 is beyond me, but someone else will know.

2 HCl + CaCO3 ---> CaCl2 + CO2 + H2O

H2SO4 + CaCO3 ---> CaSO4 +CO2 + H2O

I do remember some school chemistry!

That's all you need to remember, the basics. Add those two, (a bit like algebra) and you have what happens when using CRS, as the acids are in proportion such each removes the same amount of alkalinity: -
2HCl + H2SO4 + 2CaCO3 ----> CaCI2 + CaSO4 +2CO2 + 2H2O

Both calcium chloride and calcium sulphate are soluble in water, so remain in solution. Using phosphoric acid will produce tricalcium phosphate, which has limited solubility and can deposit and reduce calcium present.

The CO2 escapes to atmosphere, but not instantaneously.

[MashBag]

After the AMS (CRS) I have a suspicion I will also need DWB. Off to find out about calcium now, which appears to be the most important one.

[MashBag]

Well it's been a few days of chemistry, a few spread sheets and some excellent help from murphy's. But I do now have a AMS & DWB treated brew on.
Started yesterday with the house favourite recipe so I should be able to see (&taste) an improvement.

[MashBag]

Coming back to the op.

Beer stone in bottles is proper tough one to get rid of. Tried a few things: a strong sodium percarbonate dose in the bottle and a long soak help. But that left it behind, so I resorted to a bottle brush and TFR to finally crack it.

Hopefully it will not be a problem in the future.

After the event I found this.

https://www.howtohomebrewbeers.com/2018 ... l.html?m=1