VWP instead of oxyclean

The place to discuss all things about brewing hygiene!
Kingfisher4
Steady Drinker
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:03 pm

Re: VWP instead of oxyclean

Post by Kingfisher4 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:05 am

Dennis King wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:03 pm
Just had a look and the pbw at its minimum dosage of 7g per liter means i would need about 210g to clean my fermenter. The smaller pots of pbw are about £11 for 450g so thats about £5.50 a go for my fermenter. Your right its not cheap :)
I just bought some from the malt miller at £26 for 1.8kg which is better value but I do plan to use it more for my deep cleans.
I bought a bulk tub too and put some in a smaller tub to ensure the bulk one doesn't go solid.

I use it for both fermenting vessel clean and Grainfather. Weighed it out so I now use 1 tablespoon per 7.5 litres warm water for cleaning FV, 2 tablespoons for 15 litres for Grainfather. A non scratch sponge backed scourer (pennies from ALDI) and rubber gloves gives thorough clean, neither need to be filled when scoured gently with the PBW solution. It is certainly much cheaper in bulk than the grainfather cleaner and apparently much more effective too.

I initially baulked at the cost too but rationalised it by thinking if I risk wrecking my Grainfather with oxy or other cheaper cleaner in our very hard water area for the sake of a pound or less per brewday to clean it properly would seem false economy!

User avatar
Jocky
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2055
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:50 pm
Location: Epsom, Surrey, UK

Re: VWP instead of oxyclean

Post by Jocky » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:18 am

Cleaning is simultaneously the most boring thing about brewing, but also the most important if you want to make your beer as good as possible.

PBW is the best cleaner I have used - it's very powerful for brewery soils, and doesn't either melt your skin or bleach your clothes when you spill it.

With those things in mind, it's my preferred cleaner.

It's also worth saying that it's very effective at half the dosage recommended (or less in some cases), and with a non scratch washing up sponge you only need a few litres made up to clean things quickly. Filling your entire fermenter/kettle is wasteful.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

wezzel01
Steady Drinker
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat May 09, 2015 7:19 pm

Re: VWP instead of oxyclean

Post by wezzel01 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:57 am

I’ve just ordered a Mark II keg washer (after seeing another post on here). I appreciate that it is another outlay but not only will it will make cleaning much easier but will use only a fraction of the amount of PBW.

Worth considering.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

chefgage
Hollow Legs
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:37 am

Re: VWP instead of oxyclean

Post by chefgage » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:55 am

Jocky wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:18 am
Cleaning is simultaneously the most boring thing about brewing, but also the most important if you want to make your beer as good as possible.

PBW is the best cleaner I have used - it's very powerful for brewery soils, and doesn't either melt your skin or bleach your clothes when you spill it.

With those things in mind, it's my preferred cleaner.

It's also worth saying that it's very effective at half the dosage recommended (or less in some cases), and with a non scratch washing up sponge you only need a few litres made up to clean things quickly. Filling your entire fermenter/kettle is wasteful.
I always though with these sort of cleaners that you need to fill the vessel so it cleans every surface without the need of scrubbing. But now i see this is not the case. Would you recomend then the pbw versious just using washing up liquid then? Would this give a more superior clean?

Kingfisher4
Steady Drinker
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:03 pm

Re: VWP instead of oxyclean

Post by Kingfisher4 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:58 pm

PBW is infinitely better than washing up liquid!

chefgage
Hollow Legs
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:37 am

Re: VWP instead of oxyclean

Post by chefgage » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:12 pm

Kingfisher4 wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:58 pm
PBW is infinitely better than washing up liquid!
Might have to buy some then to compare :)

User avatar
Jocky
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2055
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:50 pm
Location: Epsom, Surrey, UK

Re: VWP instead of oxyclean

Post by Jocky » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:20 pm

chefgage wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:55 am
Jocky wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:18 am
Cleaning is simultaneously the most boring thing about brewing, but also the most important if you want to make your beer as good as possible.

PBW is the best cleaner I have used - it's very powerful for brewery soils, and doesn't either melt your skin or bleach your clothes when you spill it.

With those things in mind, it's my preferred cleaner.

It's also worth saying that it's very effective at half the dosage recommended (or less in some cases), and with a non scratch washing up sponge you only need a few litres made up to clean things quickly. Filling your entire fermenter/kettle is wasteful.
I always though with these sort of cleaners that you need to fill the vessel so it cleans every surface without the need of scrubbing. But now i see this is not the case. Would you recomend then the pbw versious just using washing up liquid then? Would this give a more superior clean?
Nope. Clean stuff, then sanitise before use, and you just need to get it clean however really. A 'no scrub' option would be to get a pump and a spray ball in a kind of keg washer setup.

Regarding washing up liquid - while washing up liquid will clean pretty well, any residue left from it will destroy the head on your beer, so there's only very rare cases where I'd let it anywhere near anything in my brewery.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

chefgage
Hollow Legs
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:37 am

Re: VWP instead of oxyclean

Post by chefgage » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:11 pm

Jocky wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:20 pm
chefgage wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:55 am
Jocky wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:18 am


Regarding washing up liquid - while washing up liquid will clean pretty well, any residue left from it will destroy the head on your beer, so there's only very rare cases where I'd let it anywhere near anything in my brewery.
You might have hit the nail on the head :) Head retention is something i have never got right. I use torrified wheat for head retention but i cannot say i can see a difference. I will stop cleaning my FV with washing up liquid and i will try pbw and see if that makes a difference.

User avatar
Jocky
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2055
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:50 pm
Location: Epsom, Surrey, UK

Re: VWP instead of oxyclean

Post by Jocky » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:27 am

chefgage wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:11 pm
You might have hit the nail on the head :) Head retention is something i have never got right. I use torrified wheat for head retention but i cannot say i can see a difference. I will stop cleaning my FV with washing up liquid and i will try pbw and see if that makes a difference.
I had poor head retention for quite a while until I reviewed all the possible options that might be stopping it. Glassware, cleaning chemicals (on glass and elsewhere), bottling yeast.

Eventually I realised that I was using a kitchen pan to boil up the sugar solution for batch priming and making starters, and that always had a - very small - amount of residual cooking oil left on it. I bought a stainless steel pan for brewery use only and clean it like the rest of my brewing equipment.

Problem solved.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

f00b4r
Lost in an Alcoholic Haze
Posts: 650
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:54 pm
Location: Berlin

Re: VWP instead of oxyclean

Post by f00b4r » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:43 am

Jocky wrote:
chefgage wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:11 pm
You might have hit the nail on the head :) Head retention is something i have never got right. I use torrified wheat for head retention but i cannot say i can see a difference. I will stop cleaning my FV with washing up liquid and i will try pbw and see if that makes a difference.
I had poor head retention for quite a while until I reviewed all the possible options that might be stopping it. Glassware, cleaning chemicals (on glass and elsewhere), bottling yeast.

Eventually I realised that I was using a kitchen pan to boil up the sugar solution for batch priming and making starters, and that always had a - very small - amount of residual cooking oil left on it. I bought a stainless steel pan for brewery use only and clean it like the rest of my brewing equipment.

Problem solved.
I have wondered too how many people get this issue from pans or bowls straight out of the dishwasher that are used to soak things in Starsan, good to know it wasn't just me being paranoid :)

Kingfisher4
Steady Drinker
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:03 pm

Re: VWP instead of oxyclean

Post by Kingfisher4 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:37 pm

I was aware of washing up liquid residue preventing good head retention, but have other people suffered similar issues with a standard dishwasher cycle, with the detergent rinsed thoroughly etc. during the cycle?

chefgage
Hollow Legs
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:37 am

Re: VWP instead of oxyclean

Post by chefgage » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:59 pm

Im wondering if my problem is a combination of both. I clean my fermenters with washing up liquid and clean the glasses in the dishwasher.

wezzel01
Steady Drinker
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat May 09, 2015 7:19 pm

Re: VWP instead of oxyclean

Post by wezzel01 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:29 pm

I wash my fermenters with washing up liquid, rinse well and then Starsan. Never had a problem with head retention.

I only use PBW for cleaning cornies, pipes and taps.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Carnot
Steady Drinker
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:32 pm

Re: VWP instead of oxyclean

Post by Carnot » Thu May 03, 2018 6:59 pm

VWP is based on sodium dichloroisocyanurate which is a chlorine release agent. It will like PBW be an effective sterilising agent. Most likely it will be buffered, again like PBW, with silicates and carbonates. These act a cleansers.

In both cases good rinsing is suggested to avoid issues. When you use this type of product in hard water it will probably go cloudy due to calcium carbonate precipitation. Let it stand and it will go clear but there will be a white film (calcium carbonate) on the bottom. This forms due to agglomeration of the fine calcium carbonate precipitate with time.

You can shift it with an acid. On stainless citric acid works well which is also recognised as a safe passivation treatment for stainless steel, over the more normal nitric acid/ chromate treatment.

If ypu are having a problem with head retention and you are using Starsan this could be the problem Starsan uses a stiff concentration of DDBSA which is a strong surface active agent. If you do not rinse well after using this product you might find that this is the cause of loss of head retention.

I do not believe PBW or VWP contain detergents.I clean my SS Brewtech equipment initially with fairy liquid followed by sodium percarbonate (the active of PBW) and then rinse well. The oxidising effect of the percarbonate will degrade most traces of detergent. My equipment still shines.

Post Reply