Wild yeast infections (probably)

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BrannigansLove
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Re: Wild yeast infections (probably)

Post by BrannigansLove » Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:37 pm

I use a moisture trap in my fridge to keep it condensation free.

http://www.therange.co.uk/200g-moisture ... duct/68023

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Jocky
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Re: Wild yeast infections (probably)

Post by Jocky » Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:21 pm

I was also going to suggest trying something other than just starsan. I recommend iodophor - you can get it from Brew UK https://www.brewuk.co.uk/5starlowstar.html

It is effective against wild yeast.

Alternatively, a cheapy option is to make up a weak bleach solution - mixed at the right rate it can be used as a no rinse sanitiser. Make up a bucket of it and give everything a good long soak before use.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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orlando
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Re: Wild yeast infections (probably)

Post by orlando » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:29 am

chrisr wrote: I will be baking the plate chiller before use.
Can I suggest you use a caustic solution first. If there has been a build up of wort, almost certainly, then baking is only going to "fix" it and as the saying goes you can't sanitise dirt. You might also consider getting yourself, if you don't already have one, a pressure cooker. 20 minutes at 120 psi is all you need. Once you have the chiller properly cleaned looking after it after each brew is vital, if you are not to return to a problem if it is the source. Great as they are it is impossible to know how clean you have got it. As soon as you have used it flush with hot water until it appears clear in a glass. I then run PBW through it at 65c for at least 1/2 hour, it is then flushed again and this time I almost always see some gunk. I then pressure cook it ready for next time, leaving it upside down in the PC so it can drain and not have any atmospheric borne bacteria enter the ports. It seems a little obsessive but suspect you won't need much persuasion. :D
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Re: Wild yeast infections (probably)

Post by chrisr » Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:30 pm

Unfortunately, the plate chiller is too big to boil or steam - it's about 15 inches long! I do run caustic through it from time to time, but not regularly. I do clean it well after every use; rinse then cleaner, as you suggest.

Anyway, an update on how things have gone:

I did clean the fridge. I baked the chiller, then circulated chlorine-based cleaning solution though it again before use. I got some idaphor and have been using that as well as starsan.

I brewed, two weeks ago now, with a fresh packet of yeast - that seems to have turned out OK. No off smell or taste yet, and it still has the expected sweetness, so - fingers crossed - nothing nasty is in there feeding on the remaining sugars.

I moved that brew from the primary to a secondary last weekend, and did another brew, using the same yeast with just a quick wash (by which I mean sterilised water, not acid). So no yeast storage, it was off one brew, into another. That second brew seems OK so far.

I'm planning on another brew tomorrow (it's all go!) doing the same as above, immediately reusing the yeast rather than harvesting and storing. Then that will be it for that yeast. If the third brew is OK, then I think that will be the most I've managed 'on the trot' for months.

Thanks everyone for suggestions.

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orlando
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Re: Wild yeast infections (probably)

Post by orlando » Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:08 pm

chrisr wrote:
I moved that brew from the primary to a secondary last weekend
Interesting, what do you mean by doing this? Do you mean a bottling bucket or did you just transfer the beer after a few days so it could continue fermenting in a new bucket?
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Matt in Birdham
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Re: Wild yeast infections (probably)

Post by Matt in Birdham » Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:16 pm

I'm not sure that what you are describing is a wild yeast infection. I had one once, and the taste is very distinctive (although of course this could vary); burnt rubber, medicinal, very phenolic. It sounds to me more like a mash pH or even oxidation issue, or perhaps something bacterial. It also seems that you "interfere" with your fermentation quite a lot; skimming the krausen a couple of times and transferring to secondary. All increase the possibility of infection or oxygenation. I'd be tempted just to leave well alone until ferment is complete, cold crash (if you want) in primary and bottle/keg. Secondaries are absolutely not required - this myth is well and truly busted now and even John Palmer has updated his book to reflect the fact. There is no benefit (OK - maybe if you are lagering for months), and whilst you might get away with it, most of the risks are to the down side. As far as reusing yeast goes, I am also in the "starter overbuild" camp now. So much easier and cleaner, I overbuild, crash and decant and then store one or two x 50ml in centrifuge tubes, which usually compacts to about 10ml of yeast (~80Bn cells). This also gives you a good handle on exactly how much yeast you have for the next brew, when making another starter.

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Jocky
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Re: Wild yeast infections (probably)

Post by Jocky » Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Some wise advice from Matt there. Avoid fiddling with your beer as oxidation is a bastard, and easier to end up with than many think on a home brew scale.

Also when transferring yeast there's really no need to wash it at all. Just reuse a small amount of slurry.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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Re: Wild yeast infections (probably)

Post by rpt » Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:09 pm

I also no longer rinse collected yeast and just repitch some slurry. If it's stored in the fridge then it's in a screw top container that's only used for yeast - somehow covering with cling film doesn't seem good enough. Also, when harvesting yeast you mention using sterilised water but how are you sterilising it? Unless you are using a pressure cooker it won't be sterile which is why many of us no longer rinse.

chrisr

Re: Wild yeast infections (probably)

Post by chrisr » Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:58 pm

orlando
Yes, a second, bucket (with lid & airlock)

Matt
Normally, I wouldn't transfer to a secondary. No need, I fully agree. But I wanted to do three brews on consecutive weekends, and to reuse the yeast 'on the spot' to rule out issues with storage. I only have the one fermenting bucket with a temperature probe fitted in it, so I had to get the brew out of that to reuse the bucket. I saw transferring as the lesser of the potential evils.


Interesting comments about the washing. I was doing that to try and get rid of some of the bigger debris - the non-yeast bits. So I only do it if reusing a bottom yeast. The water was boiled for 20 minutes.

Re cling film: yes, that was one of my own thoughts since starting this topic. Although it is generally accepted as sterile, off the roll, is it even fully waterproof, airproof or malicious-bug proof? That is something I will not be doing again. That's why I wanted to brew three times, with no yeast storage inbetween - to rule out storage issues.


A further update: it seems my earlier positivity was misplaced, as the first one of the sequence of three is now going off. This is still in the pressure barrel and I haven't drunk any yet (just tasted). It was brewed on 28 August. The sweetness it had is going - it was fine about a week ago - it's far too highly carbonated (which is why my self-diagnosis was wild yeast) and it's got a faint stale/sour smell (not violently sour, not vinegary). So, does the delay, plus the symptoms, enable anyone to suggest what the cause is?
Last edited by chrisr on Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

rpt
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Re: Wild yeast infections (probably)

Post by rpt » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:47 pm

This time is the pressure barrel at fault?

chrisr

Re: Wild yeast infections (probably)

Post by chrisr » Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:37 pm

I am fervently hoping so. Though it was well soaked in a chlorine-based cleaner.

The fact that was the first brew, with fresh yeast, now implicates process or equipment, rather than yeast.

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Jocky
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Re: Wild yeast infections (probably)

Post by Jocky » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:49 pm

Do you have a tap on your boiler?
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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Re: Wild yeast infections (probably)

Post by chrisr » Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:42 pm

@jocky - Yes

Brewed again today, and had a brainwave. I ran some of the beer coming out of the chiller into a sterilised bottle, and sealed it. So if the infection is starting before that point, the bottle should go off. If it doesn't, then the problem is after that point.

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Re: Wild yeast infections (probably)

Post by Jocky » Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:43 pm

Have you taken your tap apart recently and cleaned it out?

I've seen really horrid stuff growing in ball valves due to drops of wort left after a brewing session.

I pop mine apart after every brew now for cleaning, and will usually open it up for a quick squirting of starsan before filling the boiler.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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Re: Wild yeast infections (probably)

Post by BenB » Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:06 pm

Yes- worth looking at the tap as it's post-boil. I was having recurrent infections in my brews which I'm pretty certain where caused by grot in the boiler valve. To save me having to take it apart each time to clean it I run some starsan through it with a little electric pump. It'll pump 5L of starsan in about a minute so I run it for a minute or two. Reckon that'll get the nasties. It's a 4 piece valve so I take it apart every now and again.

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