The Bain of my Life

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mozza
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The Bain of my Life

Post by mozza » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:59 pm

So I had an infected batch a few years ago and they've been in my dad's garage for ages. Decided I wanted the bottles (a good 60 330ml bottles all de labelled) so today I've finally summoned up the courage to sort them out.

I've rinsed them out, then cleaned with PBW and a bottle brush. Given them all a rough rinse out. A slight modification to our dishwasher by removing the cutlery tray at the top and hey presto!

Image

Not used any tablets or rinse aid, but put half a spoon full of PBW in just for good measure lol. Dishwasher is on the hottest setting with extra dry at the end to hopefully heat sterilise. Will StarSan and cap ready for bottling day.

Should be enough to ensure the infection is killed off surely?
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Kev888
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Re: The Bain of my Life

Post by Kev888 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:26 pm

It may well work, but depends if the PBW got them physically clean and what they were infected with. Dishwashers may only get to 75c and starsan (whilst convenient) isn't the best disinfectant in the world.

Personally, after an infection I'd be wanting hotter temperatures for longer. Or else better chemical disinfectants, like bleach - with starsan just used as a final rinse (and then only if they looked physically spotless inside).
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The Bain of my Life

Post by mozza » Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:07 pm

Kev888 wrote:It may well work, but depends if the PBW got them physically clean and what they were infected with. Dishwashers may only get to 75c and starsan (whilst convenient) isn't the best disinfectant in the world.

Personally, after an infection I'd be wanting hotter temperatures for longer. Or else better chemical disinfectants, like bleach - with starsan just used as a final rinse (and then only if they looked physically spotless inside).
They were definitely spotless inside I checked each bottle :) and they had a good 10 minute soak before scrubbing. Was tempted to use bleach or something harsher but surely PBW would do the job?

It was a solvent like, TCP taste, completely disgusting if I remember right. Went straight down the drain lol
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Re: The Bain of my Life

Post by Kev888 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:37 pm

Ah, spotless is definitely good. There are some things that are hard to kill, so removing them is never bad!

I was suggesting bleach as the disinfectant, in addition to PBW not instead of it. PBW is an excellent means of removing organic deposits, but it isn't the best disinfectant for anything microscopic that manages to be left clinging on. Bleach is a very good disinfectant (as is heat, used well), and will kill many remaining bugs that you can't see. Starsan's strong points are convenience and not needing to be rinsed, rather than killing power, so when there is a known infection I wouldn't rely on it alone for disinfecting.

TCP like flavours can be down to infection, but (perhaps ironically, given my suggestion) can also be caused by chlorine reacting with the wort. So its worth being very sure that any bleach has been thoroughly rinsed away after cleaning, and also treating your tap water with a campden tablet (or sodium metabisulphate).
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Re: The Bain of my Life

Post by mozza » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:12 pm

Kev888 wrote:Starsan's strong points are convenience and not needing to be rinsed, rather than killing power, so when there is a known infection I wouldn't rely on it alone for disinfecting.
I know that starsan doesn't kill certain microbes or wild yeast. Is there a no rinse sanitizer that's more effective? Paracetic acid?
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Re: The Bain of my Life

Post by Kev888 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:40 pm

Yes, peracetic acid is (IMO) the bees knees of no-rinse disinfectants - it isn't far off being a sterilizer. But it is somewhat hazardous to deal with and store (in its un-diluted forms), so for many homebrewers a safer alternative would be a strong rinsed disinfectant (like bleach) with starsan afterwards if a final no-rinse one is wanted.

Iodophore based disinfectants (such as fivestar's io-star) can also be used in dilutions suitable for no-rinse and may well be better for wild yeast, but they aren't that easy to get hold of these days and have the unfortunate side-effect of turning most plastics and silicones/rubbers brown.

There are also some who consider a weak but acidified bleach to be no-rinse, though not all agree. The bleach and acid should certainly not be mixed directly, to avoid noxious gasses.
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Re: The Bain of my Life

Post by IPA » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:46 am

Quote "It was a solvent like, TCP taste, completely disgusting if I remember right."

That was almost certainly down to insufficient rinsing of a chlorine based sanitiser such as VWP in the FV and not a bacterial infection. The bottles therefore should be OK after a thorough wash and re sanitising.
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Re: The Bain of my Life

Post by Kev888 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:17 am

TCP flavours can commonly be caused by infection, as well as chlorine. I don't think there is evidence here to rule out either of them?
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Re: The Bain of my Life

Post by mozza » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:43 am

IPA wrote:Quote "It was a solvent like, TCP taste, completely disgusting if I remember right."

That was almost certainly down to insufficient rinsing of a chlorine based sanitiser such as VWP in the FV and not a bacterial infection. The bottles therefore should be OK after a thorough wash and re sanitising.
Ah okay. It was years ago but I'm pretty sure I would have cleaned with hot water and starsan'd. Don't think I used any chlorine based chemicals back then. I might have though so fingers crossed it was just lack of rinsing lol
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