Low cost Starsan alterantive

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Carnot
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Low cost Starsan alterantive

Post by Carnot » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:23 pm

Starsan is not exactly cheap. Looking at the ingredients it is not exactly complicated.

50 % of the ingredients is phosphoric acid and the remainder is water and dodecyl benzene sulphonic acid (DDBSA). The former is easy to obtain. The latter not so simple. But Mistral Chemicals supply DDBSA, but only to industrial consumers. Starsan is a 50% phosphoric acid and 5-15 % DDBSA. Phosphoric acid is readily available on eBay. DDBSA is not so easy. I reckon that buying in DDBSA and blending it with phosphoric acid could easily halve the cost if we can collectively buy the DDBSA. I do not mind buying in the DDBSA but I do not want to blend a Starsan clone. I can provide a recipe and maybe supply the DDBSA on the basis that there is no liabiliity. 5 litres of DDBSA is about £30 , enough to make about 100 ltr of Starsan clone. Phsophoric acid is more costly. About £30-35 for 5 ltr from eBay food grade. Is anyone interested?

Likewise I am working on PBW which is similar to Vanish ( great for skids in underpants- whatever they are). Actually more difficult to save money. Try Lidl's clone -cheap.

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Re: Low cost Starsan alterantive

Post by chefgage » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:48 pm

Star san is maybe not that cheap. But a little goes a long way. I cannot remember of the top of my head how much the standard bottle costs but as its that concentrated that small bottle makes many many litres of star san solution. So unless you are planning on taking a bath in it, is it really worth the effort to make your own??

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Re: Low cost Starsan alterantive

Post by Carnot » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:37 am

Exactly why I do not want to go into the business. But many baulk at the price and it is not that complicated if you are prepared to do a little work. The DDBSA is the tricky ingredient, made worse by REACH regulations. The strange thing is that phosphoric acid is easy to obtain. DDBSA less so, and it is the minor component and pretty benogn. To be absolutely honest I am not that struck on Starsan as it is more a bacteriostat than bacteriocide. PBW is more likely to prevent infection and is relatively cheap if you use the Lidl alternative.

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Re: Low cost Starsan alterantive

Post by chefgage » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:00 am

But i would not just use pbw on its own though, as its just a cleaner?? You still have to rinse with water which means then using a no rinse to sanitise. At least thats my understanding.

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Re: Low cost Starsan alterantive

Post by sonicated » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:43 am

I use Wilko Oxi Plus Stain Remover for cleaning. Is the Lidl one better? What's it called?

Given how far a bottle of Starsan goes I'm happy to stick with it. PBW on the other hand is expensive and doesn't last that long.

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Re: Low cost Starsan alterantive

Post by wolfenrook » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:36 am

I use sodium percarbonate off eBay for cleaning (the useful ingredient in oxy), it's a lot cheaper and definitely perfume free. I sanitise with Starsan though. Given that 2mls mixed with 1.7 litres of RO water lasts quite a while, it's really not at all expensive, it's just the initial purchase price. Now VWP, that stuff is expensive! Doesn't last long at all and is quite expensive for a tub of it... Plus you may as well just use another, cheaper, chlorine bleach product as you have to rinse the same anyway....

Touch wood, the only "infected" brew I have ever had was back when I was using kits, and got a pellicle on a Wilko's Cerveza. No biggy for me though, as found it too sweet tasting anyway so left them for my wife to drink (she still has loads, but won't let be pour all of the old kit brews down the drain where they belong... lol).

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Kev888
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Re: Low cost Starsan alterantive

Post by Kev888 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:49 pm

Starsan is already cheap if the dilution rate is considered and, whilst convenient in a few scenarios, it isn't a holy grail. It often isn't (directly) compatible with peoples tap water and (as mentioned) isn't the most comprehensive disinfectant around; certainly it isn't my primary or only choice of disinfectant.

A true alternative with improved performance could be interesting. But IMO the only benefit of directly ripping starsan off would be if you got through unusual amounts, enough for the savings to make the effort worthwhile. Especially if (assuming it were not an exact copy) the effectiveness (and perhaps safety) were to be fully tested and verified, rather than just assumed. I'd guess that would indicate much more than personal consumption for most home brewers.
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Re: Low cost Starsan alterantive

Post by chris2012 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:20 am

According to the MSDS there's also Isopropyl Alcohol.

Isn't the remaining 25% possibly a trade secret. It says something like 'Other compositional information is considered a trade secret'

I have wondered about it before, but because DDBSA is hard to get, I'm not sure it's worth it and maybe there are other chemicals in it too.

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Re: Low cost Starsan alterantive

Post by MyQul » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:57 pm

Whilst the initial cost of star san is relatively high, because you can re-use it many times it works out quite cheap. I've had my 8oz bottle of star san for about 4 yeast and theirs still about a 1/4 left.

If you cant afford a bottle of star san their are alternatives for no rinse sanisers. Bleach can be diluted down to a no rinse level . You can also make bleach/white vinegar no rinse solutions. Just google 'no rinse bleach solution'

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Re: Low cost Starsan alterantive

Post by McMullan » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:06 pm

Thanks for the reassurance MyQul. I might buy some :pink:

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Low cost Starsan alterantive

Post by f00b4r » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:28 am

I also wouldn't equate PBW with the laundry products as the experience of many brewers has found PBW to be a lot more effective and if your water is hard you can get issues of white hard deposits forming from using sodium percarbonate (pure or laundry based products) in anything but very short soaks.
There have been a few attempts made to add the chellating agent etc to clone it but I couldn't comment on how well that has worked out compared to the "real deal".

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Re: Low cost Starsan alterantive

Post by MarkA » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:52 am

I bought a 236ml bottle of Star San a couple of years ago for £9.20. At a dilution rate of 1.6ml per litre, it works out at just over 6p for a litre of sanitiser that I can re-use if I want to (though I generally make it fresh each time). The initial cost does seem high, but this stuff will last for years!

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Re: Low cost Starsan alterantive

Post by Jocky » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:59 pm

How much lower cost can you really make it?

Particularly compared to something like a diluted bleach solution.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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Re: Low cost Starsan alterantive

Post by Carnot » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:09 pm

Depends. I am trialing a very simple approach which I am sure will cause some derision. Simple Fairy Liquid and phosphoric acid. Apart from the colour I doubt if you could spot the difference. I am trialing different blends of the two.

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Jocky
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Re: Low cost Starsan alterantive

Post by Jocky » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:31 pm

Not a chemist, so my understanding is rudimentary and I'm curious rather than critical here...

Isn't using a detergent without rinsing going to have deleterious effects on the end beer's head?
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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