Best yeast to co-pitch with WLP002?

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Best yeast to co-pitch with WLP002?

Post by MTW » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:53 am

I made a delicious strong ale with WLP002 last year, loads of malt backbone with EKG and Perle over the top and about 6%. Pretty similar to Fullers 1845 in its taste, by happy coincidence. It was terrific for many weeks, before it finally over carbonated in the bottles, which is something I've discussed at length here and elsewhere regarding WLP002 and high FGs; it had lots of cara and a 70C mash.

I'm brewing it again, but I want to pitch in a more attenuative, second strain. The WLP002 definitely made some lovely fermentation driven flavours, so I want to keep it. Ideally, I want something dry (rehydrated) that I can pitch at the same time as the WLP002, to avoid having to make and pitch two lots of starter wort. With the 002 already fizzing away in a starter, I'm hoping the second strain won't out-compete it in early growth and mute its esters.

Any thoughts or experiences? I'm wondering if I could get away adding rehydrated yeast a little later, but still before there's too much alcohol in there, just to give the 002 a head start.
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Re: Best yeast to co-pitch with WLP002?

Post by mozza » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:37 pm

You could pitch some Nottingham after a couple of days. I brewed a high gravity pale ale a few months back and it stalled at 1.030 after three weeks primary. It was about 6.5 % at this stage and pitched notty which happily dropped it to 1.020 so touch wood no bottle bombs lol
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Re: Best yeast to co-pitch with WLP002?

Post by MTW » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:08 pm

mozza wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:37 pm
You could pitch some Nottingham after a couple of days. I brewed a high gravity pale ale a few months back and it stalled at 1.030 after three weeks primary. It was about 6.5 % at this stage and pitched notty which happily dropped it to 1.020 so touch wood no bottle bombs lol
Thanks for that: sounds like a possibility. The only stall I've had I repitched a 1L active starter, so I haven't got any experience of pitching dry yeast once there's alcohol there.
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Re: Best yeast to co-pitch with WLP002?

Post by PeeBee » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:25 pm

White Labs web site says WLP005 is similar to WLP002 but more attenuative. Possible option to a second pitch?
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Re: Best yeast to co-pitch with WLP002?

Post by MTW » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:56 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:25 pm
White Labs web site says WLP005 is similar to WLP002 but more attenuative. Possible option to a second pitch?
Thanks, but I've used 005 once before and it didn't seem much like 002 for me, though it was certainly more attenuative. 005 was almost a bottom fermenter (apparently only part of the true Ringwood strain) when I used it, and a without the lovely esters of 002. Maybe there is a way to get it to work differently, but I'm sticking with 002 as the main strain, for now.
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Re: Best yeast to co-pitch with WLP002?

Post by john luc » Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:23 pm

use Windsor yeast first and then pitch your 002 48 hours later.
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Re: Best yeast to co-pitch with WLP002?

Post by Rookie » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:35 pm

WLP002 will attenuate more if you rouse it back into suspension every two or three days.
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Re: Best yeast to co-pitch with WLP002?

Post by McMullan » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:29 pm

A few weeks in a secondary is likely to solve the issue.

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Re: Best yeast to co-pitch with WLP002?

Post by MTW » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:17 pm

McMullan wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:29 pm
A few weeks in a secondary is likely to solve the issue.
That is possible. But to avoid the thread getting side tracked, I will just say that my primary was pretty exhaustive followed by a decent secondary, all at high temps and a couple of rouses. With 16% cara and a 70c mash, the 71% attenuation I got didn't seem off for what I have read with 002. It wasn't shifting anywhere after that and with any yeast I've used before (in 100 odd fermentations) that would have been that. Stable FG for days. You can find similar reports for 002 around, stable as you like, great in cask, but bottled over carb months later.

I appreciate it, but I'm not going to tie it up for months in secondary to find out. I'd like to try a multi strain method.
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Re: Best yeast to co-pitch with WLP002?

Post by jaroporter » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:18 am

just some thoughts on what's been written..

i've used the months in secondary technique for imperials as bulk maturation is supposed to be quicker anyways. it's probably what i'd do, but it'd take more than a few weeks! but i don't think i'll use this yeast again, unless making the odd cask bitter.
john luc wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:23 pm
use Windsor yeast first and then pitch your 002 48 hours later.
can you explain this suggestion more? both are yeasts that initially "stop" high then finish low very slowly. also using windsor first would surely affect the desired 002 flavours?

i've used nottingham with windsor and that definitely gave full attenuation on nottingham's timescale while keeping some windsor flavours. if i was going with a second yeast it would probably be that. i wonder if the recipe might be making things hard here though. be interesting to do half with 002/nottingham and half with just nottingham and see if the 002 half end up lower down the line..

005 is delicious, but nothing like 002 for me. i know whitelabs say it is, but they also say 002 is a low attenuator, when they really mean a slow attenuator!
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Re: Best yeast to co-pitch with WLP002?

Post by MTW » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:59 pm

jaroporter wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:18 am
just some thoughts on what's been written..

i've used the months in secondary technique for imperials as bulk maturation is supposed to be quicker anyways. it's probably what i'd do, but it'd take more than a few weeks! but i don't think i'll use this yeast again, unless making the odd cask bitter.
john luc wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:23 pm
use Windsor yeast first and then pitch your 002 48 hours later.
can you explain this suggestion more? both are yeasts that initially "stop" high then finish low very slowly. also using windsor first would surely affect the desired 002 flavours?

i've used nottingham with windsor and that definitely gave full attenuation on nottingham's timescale while keeping some windsor flavours. if i was going with a second yeast it would probably be that. i wonder if the recipe might be making things hard here though. be interesting to do half with 002/nottingham and half with just nottingham and see if the 002 half end up lower down the line..

005 is delicious, but nothing like 002 for me. i know whitelabs say it is, but they also say 002 is a low attenuator, when they really mean a slow attenuator!
Great stuff, thanks. When and how did you pitch the two yeasts (Windsor/Nottingham combo)?
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Re: Best yeast to co-pitch with WLP002?

Post by jaroporter » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:04 pm

it was just the once so wont claim it's been fully tested; but pitched both together, rehydrated at start, 1g/L total. got down from 1,049 to 1,011 in 5 days. the windsor still took a bit of time to clear but that wont be a problem with 002. definitely still had windsor flavours in there.

like i say though, i have such a distrust for 002 these days! i wouldn't be suprised if the high mash temp and hit of cara might leave stuff it can eat slowly through over months in storage.. :?

get the flavour profile you want, kill the 002, bottle condition with nottingham. that's what i'd do. paranoid me? .. :roll:
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Re: Best yeast to co-pitch with WLP002?

Post by Bad 'Ed » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:29 pm

Surely you'd just use US05 if you wanted to keep the WLP002 profile? It's dried, can tolerate high alcohol levels, finishes low and has a very low flavour profile.

I'd say the risk with this game is pitching the second yeast too late. I'd probably chuck it in 24 hours after high krausen (maybe 48h in? I can't remember how quick WLP002 is to start).
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Re: Best yeast to co-pitch with WLP002?

Post by Dennis King » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:47 pm

002 is the yeast I have used the most over many years and it always tend to finish around
1.012 after 6-8 days in the primary fermenter. Great yeast.

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Re: Best yeast to co-pitch with WLP002?

Post by MTW » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:47 pm

Bad 'Ed wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:29 pm
Surely you'd just use US05 if you wanted to keep the WLP002 profile? It's dried, can tolerate high alcohol levels, finishes low and has a very low flavour profile.

I'd say the risk with this game is pitching the second yeast too late. I'd probably chuck it in 24 hours after high krausen (maybe 48h in? I can't remember how quick WLP002 is to start).
Well I went ahead and pitched with WLP002 followed by some rehydrated US-05 24 hours later. I had visible activity from the 002 when I woke up 18 hours after pitching, gave it another 6 hours and pitched the US-05. It's 3 days on as I write, and I have a thin covering left of what looks like the familiar sticky remains of US-05, rather than 002, which had pretty much sunk by this point last time, so the plan is hopefully working! It tastes spot on for this stage and seems to have gained all the good English esters from the 002 before the US-05 got going.

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