Yeast Starter

[Mike123]

I have not brewed lager before but I now have temperature control for fermentation and I thought I would have a go at Nick's Marzen. It uses Wyeast 2206. I have used liquid yeast quite a bit for ales and pitched directly with no problems. The write up suggests using a starter, will this be necessary for a 23l batch size? If I need to make a starter what is the best way to do this as I have never done this before? Thanks.

[LeeH]

https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/blog/ho ... t-starter/

[Mike123]

That's great thanks for the link

[f00b4r]

You will generally need more cells when fermenting a lager due to the lower fermenting temperatures. Take a look at the online calculators for how much, but a 4L stepped one for lager isn’t unusual.
It isn’t as scary as it sounds though, just don’t try and do it in one step. You could use a demijohn or 5L water bottle or make a mini stovetop batch and then use the yeast cake.

[f00b4r]

What’s the BB or manufacturing date on the yeast packet? Do you have a stir plate? I can run some numbers for you.
It looks like you can get away with a smaller starter, given the gravity and using a step.

[Mike123]

What’s the BB or manufacturing date on the yeast packet? Do you have a stir plate? I can run some numbers for you.
It looks like you can get away with a smaller starter, given the gravity and using a step.

I am just about to buy the yeast to use in a couple of weeks I haven't got a date and I was going to get a stir plate. I was hoping a 1 litre starter would be enough for a 23l batch? The OG will be 1.055.

[Mike123]

Take a look at the online calculators for how much, but a 4L stepped one for lager isn’t unusual.

I have two litre flasks so I was planning to use these. The calculator I have just used is suggesting a 2 step starter. Would I let this starter ferment for 24hrs, cold crash and use the slurry for another 2 litre starter, then cold crash and pitch the slurry from that?

[f00b4r]

Sorry I’m a little tired so I hope others pick up on anything they disagree with. With a relatively fresh pack and a stir plate and a stepped starter you should be able to get away with a <2L starter, you can always split this on the second step.
Here is an example, that includes a slight overbuild of 70 billion cells. You could just pitch the lot or keep 300ml back stored in a sterilised jar to build up again another time. This makes assumptions about the manufacturing date so that may change slightly when your yeast arrives. Ideally it’s better to start with a very small step and even a small portion of the yeast packet (leads to healthier yeast) but maybe better to keep it simple the first time around.
The length of time between steps depends on a few things (room temperature, yeast health and the strain) but if it’s a fresh yeast packet then 24 hours for steps should be fine (you do not make the starters at lager fermentation temperatures). No need to cold crash between steps, just add the extra wort; you may want to cold crash at the end though. Don’t forget to buy some yeast nutrients and add to your starter wort when making it and don’t forget to oxygenate it either.
Just bear in mind that this is using models that calculate yeast growth and it is a simplification.

[IPA]

What ever happened to the days when,for top fermented beer, we made a pint starter. It always worked fine until the Yanks told us it was wrong.
I remember having this conversation with GW a few years back.

[Mike123]

Thank you for the information. As it is my first attempt at a lager fermenting at a low temperature I will try and do it properly and do a two step starter. It will be much better than watching it do nothing after pitching yeast then trying to rescue it.

[f00b4r]

What ever happened to the days when,for top fermented beer, we made a pint starter. It always worked fine until the Yanks told us it was wrong.
I remember having this conversation with GW a few years back.

“Fine” or fantastic? Even starter size is a big simplification though, yeast health plays a big factor too. For example McMullen showed me that it is better to start with a small amount of yeast (a slope or just a teaspoon worth from a packet) with a tiny starter (50ml or less) and go up in multiple steps from that; if you have a pressure cooker you can prep all the steps in one go and just add the wort from each sealed sterilised jar to the initial starter. I’ve never had such active clean fermentations as with that method.

[ozroger]

I know that the rule-of-thumb is to use double the cell count of yeast for a lager (ie - 1.5million/mL/degree Plato) to account for the lower fermentation temps. Brewing lagers in a warmish climate without the means to keep the FVs cold enough has been a problem for me over the years, so I've pretty well limited myself to ales.

However, guys on a couple of podcasts have told of their lagers doing very well in comps, after having been fermented at ale temps! To the point where tasters could not tell the difference.

So, my current brews fermenting happily at 18C in my ex-wine storage cabinet are BoPils with Novalager, and about to pitch the third fermenter of this batch with W34/70. Both of these lager yeasts have recommended temp ranges of up to 18C.

But at these "ale" temps, it's probably not necessary to double the cell count.

Traditionalists may well disagree.

[f00b4r]

I know that the rule-of-thumb is to use double the cell count of yeast for a lager (ie - 1.5million/mL/degree Plato) to account for the lower fermentation temps. Brewing lagers in a warmish climate without the means to keep the FVs cold enough has been a problem for me over the years, so I've pretty well limited myself to ales.

However, guys on a couple of podcasts have told of their lagers doing very well in comps, after having been fermented at ale temps! To the point where tasters could not tell the difference.

So, my current brews fermenting happily at 18C in my ex-wine storage cabinet are BoPils with Novalager, and about to pitch the third fermenter of this batch with W34/70. Both of these lager yeasts have recommended temp ranges of up to 18C.

But at these "ale" temps, it's probably not necessary to double the cell count.

Traditionalists may well disagree.

I’ve not done it myself but from what I have seen it’s success does appear to be strain related. I used to do the other way though by using Kölsch fermented colder, it makes a pretty decent lager. I would be interested to hear how the W34/70 one comes out, this is the dry version of the Weihenstephan yeast that is the most widely used strain in German breweries.

[ozroger]

Yes, in one of the podcasts, the brewer specifically cited the W34/70 strain as being suitable for the higher temperature fermentation, but cautioned that not all lager strains would do well at the elevated temps.

From the respective websites:
Novalager recommended range: 10C to 20C
W34/70 recommended range: 12C to 18C

[f00b4r]

Yes, in one of the podcasts, the brewer specifically cited the W34/70 strain as being suitable for the higher temperature fermentation, but cautioned that not all lager strains would do well at the elevated temps.

From the respective websites:
Novalager recommended range: 10C to 20C
W34/70 recommended range: 12C to 18C

The Novalager seems interesting too but I have not seen any amount of real world feedback on it yet, although I expect that will come over the next month or two too from quite a few people trying it.