Water profile for a Pale ale

(That's water to the rest of us!) Beer is about 95% water, so if you want to discuss water treatment, filtering etc this is the place to do it!
Bigbud78
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Water profile for a Pale ale

Post by Bigbud78 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:02 pm

Hi

I got a water report from wallybrew so Im not looking at what to target for a Mosaic Pale ale, I've not really learned too much RE water yet but I found a profile online that a few people have said is a good base for hoppy ipa's / pales ?

Can anyone comment or suggest something to aim for please ?

Many Thanks
Jim

Calcium 110
Mag 18
Sodium 17
sulfate 350
chloride 50
bicarb 27
PH 7.0

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orlando
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Re: Water profile for a Pale ale

Post by orlando » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:14 pm

Bigbud78 wrote:Hi

I got a water report from wallybrew so Im not looking at what to target for a Mosaic Pale ale, I've not really learned too much RE water yet but I found a profile online that a few people have said is a good base for hoppy ipa's / pales ?

Can anyone comment or suggest something to aim for please ?

Many Thanks
Jim

Calcium 110
Mag 18
Sodium 17
sulfate 350
chloride 50
bicarb 27
PH 7.0
Looks good as is but if you up your calcium to closer to 200 you'd be nigh on perfect with that. Ignore the pH value by the way, it's the mash pH that counts.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Cold As Ice, Golden Years
Conditioning: St. Petersburg (RIS), Mrs Worthington (White Shield Clone)
Drinking: Hazy Shade Of Winter, Kernel Bogey (India Porter)
Up Next: Black Dog, London Calling, Gertcherbrewed
Planning: Winter drinking beer.

Bigbud78
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Location: Manchester

Re: Water profile for a Pale ale

Post by Bigbud78 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:33 pm

Awesome thanks

Dave S
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Re: Water profile for a Pale ale

Post by Dave S » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:18 am

orlando wrote:
Bigbud78 wrote:Hi

I got a water report from wallybrew so Im not looking at what to target for a Mosaic Pale ale, I've not really learned too much RE water yet but I found a profile online that a few people have said is a good base for hoppy ipa's / pales ?

Can anyone comment or suggest something to aim for please ?

Many Thanks
Jim

Calcium 110
Mag 18
Sodium 17
sulfate 350
chloride 50
bicarb 27
PH 7.0
Looks good as is but if you up your calcium to closer to 200 you'd be nigh on perfect with that. Ignore the pH value by the way, it's the mash pH that counts.
Yes, and maybe up the calcium using calcium chloride flake to increas the chloride level a bit. A 7:1 Sulphate:Chloride ratio might make it overly dry.
Best wishes

Dave

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orlando
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Re: Water profile for a Pale ale

Post by orlando » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:25 am

Dave S wrote:
Yes, and maybe up the calcium using calcium chloride flake to increas the chloride level a bit. A 7:1 Sulphate:Chloride ratio might make it overly dry.
Excellent point, good spot.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Cold As Ice, Golden Years
Conditioning: St. Petersburg (RIS), Mrs Worthington (White Shield Clone)
Drinking: Hazy Shade Of Winter, Kernel Bogey (India Porter)
Up Next: Black Dog, London Calling, Gertcherbrewed
Planning: Winter drinking beer.

Bigbud78
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Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:32 pm
Location: Manchester

Re: Water profile for a Pale ale

Post by Bigbud78 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:35 pm

Based on twiddling with Bru'n water for hours I ended up with

Calcium 130
Mag 17
Sodium 18
sulfate 319
chloride 49
bicarb 28

No idea what it'll be like, have to wait and see. I found to get the calcium higher my sulphate level was just too high and the mash ph was I believe to high, if any one wants to look at my water report numbers and let me know what I should have done in bru n water Id be grateful so I know where to go next time xD

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orlando
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Re: Water profile for a Pale ale

Post by orlando » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:55 pm

Bigbud78 wrote:Based on twiddling with Bru'n water for hours I ended up with

Calcium 130
Mag 17
Sodium 18
sulfate 319
chloride 49
bicarb 28

No idea what it'll be like, have to wait and see. I found to get the calcium higher my sulphate level was just too high and the mash ph was I believe to high, if any one wants to look at my water report numbers and let me know what I should have done in bru n water Id be grateful so I know where to go next time xD

Did you see DaveS' comment above? Use calcium chloride to rise the calcium level.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Cold As Ice, Golden Years
Conditioning: St. Petersburg (RIS), Mrs Worthington (White Shield Clone)
Drinking: Hazy Shade Of Winter, Kernel Bogey (India Porter)
Up Next: Black Dog, London Calling, Gertcherbrewed
Planning: Winter drinking beer.

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Jocky
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Re: Water profile for a Pale ale

Post by Jocky » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:24 pm

If you post your actual water profile as from wallybrew then someone can do the hard work for you and explain how to best adjust your water.

I spent ages twiddling knobs in Bru n Water but eventually I found it was vastly overcomplicating things and giving me warnings over things I didn't need to worry about.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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Eric
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Re: Water profile for a Pale ale

Post by Eric » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:28 pm

Bigbud78 wrote:Based on twiddling with Bru'n water for hours I ended up with

Calcium 130
Mag 17
Sodium 18
sulfate 319
chloride 49
bicarb 28

No idea what it'll be like, have to wait and see. I found to get the calcium higher my sulphate level was just too high and the mash ph was I believe to high, if any one wants to look at my water report numbers and let me know what I should have done in bru n water Id be grateful so I know where to go next time xD
Yes please. You will get a drier beer than I would care for with that profile, but there will be many other factors at play like mash temperature and time, yeast as well as the recipe.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

Bigbud78
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Re: Water profile for a Pale ale

Post by Bigbud78 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:01 pm

I already have a pale with that profile chugging away now but any help towards my next would definitely be appreciated :)

Sodium as Na, mg/L 1.0
Potassium as K, mg/L 5.3
Magnesium as Mg, mg/L 0.6
Calcium as Ca, mg/L 9.3
Chloride as Cl, mg/L 5.7
Nitrate as NO3, mg/L 1.1
Phosphate as PO4, mg/L 5.4
Sulphate as SO4, mg/L 7.0
Total alkalinity as CaCO3, mg/L 11
pH 6.35
Conductivity, uScm 58.6 -1 at 20C
Total residual chlorine as Cl2, mg/L 0.02

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Eric
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Re: Water profile for a Pale ale

Post by Eric » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:22 pm

Bigbud78 wrote:I already have a pale with that profile chugging away now but any help towards my next would definitely be appreciated :)
There's nothing wrong with that profile, just that from my experience it normally produces a beer too dry with most recipes for my taste, although when aged takes on a more mellow characteristic.

I don't use Bru'nwater simply because Martin's taste is very different to my own effectively suggesting I use different water to that coming out of my tap.

There's very little in your water as you obviously know. I'll suggest that next time you try the same recipe, do it with more equal amounts of sulphate and chloride for comparison.
Sodium is very low and does impart flavour, something to bear in mind later.
Magnesium is important for yeast and while malt supplies a significant quantity, it may be worth adding some Epsom Salts to the boil.
Calcium is the most important ion in brewing playing the major role in a vast number of the reations at every stage of the process. It lowers pH at every stage and as your water has little alkalinity to raise pH, you might not find the need for much calcium in the mash for a suitable pH. However, once that small quantity of calcium is used there would be need to add extra calcium later to minimise any rise in pH to cause unwanted products passing through to spoil what might otherwise be better.

There is no single perfect water profile, but your water will require some alkalinity adding if you venture into making darker beers or maybe even when using a moderate amount of crystal malt. Otherwise, keep a record of what profile you have used and notes on your findings for the beer's taste and other properties.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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orlando
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Re: Water profile for a Pale ale

Post by orlando » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:26 pm

Eric wrote:
Bigbud78 wrote:I already have a pale with that profile chugging away now but any help towards my next would definitely be appreciated :)
There's nothing wrong with that profile, just that from my experience it normally produces a beer too dry with most recipes for my taste, although when aged takes on a more mellow characteristic.

I don't use Bru'nwater simply because Martin's taste is very different to my own effectively suggesting I use different water to that coming out of my tap.

There's very little in your water as you obviously know. I'll suggest that next time you try the same recipe, do it with more equal amounts of sulphate and chloride for comparison.
Sodium is very low and does impart flavour, something to bear in mind later.
Magnesium is important for yeast and while malt supplies a significant quantity, it may be worth adding some Epsom Salts to the boil.
Calcium is the most important ion in brewing playing the major role in a vast number of the reations at every stage of the process. It lowers pH at every stage and as your water has little alkalinity to raise pH, you might not find the need for much calcium in the mash for a suitable pH. However, once that small quantity of calcium is used there would be need to add extra calcium later to minimise any rise in pH to cause unwanted products passing through to spoil what might otherwise be better.

There is no single perfect water profile, but your water will require some alkalinity adding if you venture into making darker beers or maybe even when using a moderate amount of crystal malt. Otherwise, keep a record of what profile you have used and notes on your findings for the beer's taste and other properties.
A decent pH meter to monitor the effect on the mash could prove very useful too.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Cold As Ice, Golden Years
Conditioning: St. Petersburg (RIS), Mrs Worthington (White Shield Clone)
Drinking: Hazy Shade Of Winter, Kernel Bogey (India Porter)
Up Next: Black Dog, London Calling, Gertcherbrewed
Planning: Winter drinking beer.

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Eric
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Re: Water profile for a Pale ale

Post by Eric » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:16 pm

Yes, a pH meter to monitor the mash. I think we can over rely on a single early reading which may provide a warning of all not being as it should, but it's the pH at the end of the mash that is more likely to indicate if there was a problem, particularly when fly sparging or at a high level of extraction efficiency.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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orlando
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Re: Water profile for a Pale ale

Post by orlando » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:23 pm

Eric wrote:Yes, a pH meter to monitor the mash. I think we can over rely on a single early reading which may provide a warning of all not being as it should, but it's the pH at the end of the mash that is more likely to indicate if there was a problem, particularly when fly sparging or at a high level of extraction efficiency.

Taking the pH of last runnings is a good guide. Under 6 and you should be OK and avoid the worst of tannin extraction.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Cold As Ice, Golden Years
Conditioning: St. Petersburg (RIS), Mrs Worthington (White Shield Clone)
Drinking: Hazy Shade Of Winter, Kernel Bogey (India Porter)
Up Next: Black Dog, London Calling, Gertcherbrewed
Planning: Winter drinking beer.

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Eric
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Location: Sunderland.

Re: Water profile for a Pale ale

Post by Eric » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:19 pm

5.6 in my book.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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